[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

You will love this part of the article. The MCR author, in his first paragraph makes a statement about Hot Rod Magazines author, Steve Kelly. "...with Steve Kelly putting 'de Judge" through its paces in the Dec. '68 issue. He tested a prototype at Ubly Dragway, 'a pleasant spot 100 miles north of Detroit.' Probably because the car was a preproduction model, Kelly opted to leave it in 'show room condition' and not perform the usual modifications done in the quest for quicker e.t.'s-tire pressure changes, air cleaner removal and the like."....

It goes onto talk about Bob Swaim of "Car Craft"... Now he's telling us that Swaim tested a "Baby Bobcat" in his article of March 1969. But his testing ws done November 1968.

Do you really think they went out twice with the exact same weather conditions? Read the old articles I already posted... All three cars where well prepaired Bobcat's, fresh engines etc. Jim Wangers' made sure these cars RAN!

Humm, I guess he never found any of those other magazine articles on 1965 Royal Bobcat 389 Tri-power vs Royal Bobcat Ram Air IV GTO or Royal Bobcat Ram Air III Judge vs Royal Bobcat Ram Air VI GTO. These articles are in this thread.

Funny they were all testes the same day for different articles.

By the way isn't that Milt Schornack under the hood of a couple of cars and stahding by the '65 GTO getting it's tires changed?

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

It occured to me this morning that there where two different test days!!!, I had a chance to sleep on it. Things get clearer what happen over 40 years ago after sleep.

The Hot Rod Magazine article "de Judge" by Steve Kelly was Jim Wangers' proposed low cost Road Runner fighter. It happen earlier in November no winter jackets just cool air. It was a Tempest Post Coupe ET 350 H.O.that Delorean changed the name to Judge and didn't want a anything but 400's in his GTO's.

Thus Steve Kelly tested a "post coupe" 350 H.O. not a "hard top" Ram Air III Judge as tested by Bob Swaim in Car Craft, with the tall Judge spoiler. I posted pictures of the later Bobcat Judge Ram Air III, '65 389 Tri-power, GTO Bobcat Ram Air IV multi magazine article tests above at Lapeer. Note cars are being tuned and tires changed and pressures checked at the track!

I had also posted the Hot Rod magazine test "de Judge" earlier along with the article of a 1968 test with Ace Wilson's Royal guy's, Dave Warren and Brian Ballish doing the tuning, with a Tempest 350 H.O. vs a Road Runner. You will clearly see it is a post coupe, with the 350 H.O. in Steve Kelly's Hot Rod Test that ran in the mid 14's. It had a hollowed out hood tac on the passenger side used as a ram air scoop. The later test at Lapeer was very colder, thus jackets. Note pictures of what every one is wearing.

The Judge in MCR June 2013 article is a hard top test car. All of Royal's prepared test cars where in top tune with Bobcat Kits and built to be beat on by the press. Royal people were always at the tests to tune and correct the cars being tested.

Will...I'm glad I got that cleared up...Like Mud!? LOL

[Keith Seymore]

What's funny to me is that Lapeer Dragway looks exactly the same; hasn't changed a bit in 50 years.

For those who are not local: Lapeer Dragway is still in operation. The aforementioned Ubly Dragway is now closed, effective this season.

K

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Keith,
Thanks for the reminder about the two tracks.

We hosted Arnie Bewick in 2004 in honor of the GTO at Lapeer. It was after Arnie's accident. This was the first time I had been back since 1972 when I had to get the time slip on the return road at what looked like a broken down wooden phone booth. Couldn't read the darn thing. When I returned in 2004 I had to go to the food trailer to get the time slip. I guess they thought you might get hungry or thursty after a run and siting in the dusty pit area.LOL

It just occured to me. The no name writer of the June 2013 issue of "Muscle Car Review" Judge "Rewind Baby Bobcat" must have rushed to "Judgement" his thoughts about the two Judge tests. This seems like a simular rush as in the "Woodward" book. Good idea, just a lot of inaccurate information.

Humm doesn't that guy contibute to "Muscle Car Review"? If same guy, he has to slow down and get his information right before publication.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

It occured to me this morning that there where two different test days!!!, I had a chance to sleep on it. Things get clearer what happen over 40 years ago after sleep.

The Hot Rod Magazine article "de Judge" by Steve Kelly was Jim Wangers' proposed low cost Road Runner fighter. It happen earlier in November no winter jackets just cool air. It was a Tempest Post Coupe ET 350 H.O.that Delorean changed the name to Judge and didn't want a anything but 400's in his GTO's.

Thus Steve Kelly tested a "post coupe" 350 H.O. not a "hard top" Ram Air III Judge as tested by Bob Swaim in Car Craft, with the tall Judge spoiler. I posted pictures of the later Bobcat Judge Ram Air III, '65 389 Tri-power, GTO Bobcat Ram Air IV multi magazine article tests above at Lapeer. Note cars are being tuned and tires changed and pressures checked at the track!

I had also posted the Hot Rod magazine test "de Judge" earlier along with the article of a 1968 test with Ace Wilson's Royal guy's, Dave Warren and Brian Ballish doing the tuning, with a Tempest 350 H.O. vs a Road Runner. You will clearly see it is a post coupe, with the 350 H.O. in Steve Kelly's Hot Rod Test that ran in the mid 14's. It had a hollowed out hood tac on the passenger side used as a ram air scoop. The later test at Lapeer was very colder, thus jackets. Note pictures of what every one is wearing.

The Judge in MCR June 2013 article is a hard top test car. All of Royal's prepared test cars where in top tune with Bobcat Kits and built to be beat on by the press. Royal people were always at the tests to tune and correct the cars being tested.

Will...I'm glad I got that cleared up...Like Mud!? LOL

I found the posts of the orginal Steve Kelly, "Hot Rod" magazine test "de Judge". If you look at the first picture...I wouldn't exactly say that he was babying the "preproduction" car during braking as stated in the MCR article would you! LOL Wrong, guess again MCR....LOL

Go back and look at post number 529, 530 and 531. You have the "Hot Rod" magazine article with a clear picture of a Post Coupe.

I'll look back and find the Bob Swaim "Car Craft" test for you. It has to be around the same area.

Enjoy the reading.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Found the other magazine tests of the Judge done at Lapeer.

Go to page 25 of this tread, posts number 481, 483, 484 have the magazine articles posted. Now does this look like the same post coupe Judge from the Hot Rod Magazine test posted on page 27, 529, 530 and 531?

So much for the accuracy of these enthusiast magazines.....

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

I'm sorry to inform you that Joe Ruggirello past away this week.

I already contacted Tom Tate who was looking so forward to having Joe's old Mustang II ready for next years Woodward Dream Cruise. He wanted to hear all of Joe's story's of Detroit's street racing scene.

I hope Tom posts the recent picture he sent me of the Gapp and Roush shop with Joe's Mustang II in the background and their Maverick 4 Dr Pro Stock race car in the foreground.

Joe had been part of the Thursday night High End Club since the 50's. I had not seen Joe since his 80th Birthday a year go at a Thursday night gathering of the High End Club. I posted pictures of that gathering in this forum.

There have been articles posted on this thread about Joe's Mustang II by Tenney, Tom and Myself.

I hope you enjoy the articles as much as many of us enjoyed the ride.

Eric



RUGGIRELLO, JOSEPH
2013-05-20

RUGGIRELLO JOSEPH May 17, 2013 Age 81. Son of the late Antonio and Josephine. Dear brother of Antonino "Tony" Sr., Antonio "Toto" and the late Louis. Uncle of Jerry, Tony (Rose), and Angelic Sponaugle (Ken). Great uncle of Nino, Tony, Maria, Gina, Juliana, Joe, Kenny and Ava. Loving friend of Sandy Roselle. Family will receive friends Tuesday 4-8 p.m. and Wednesday 2-8 p.m. with prayer service at 7 p.m. at A.J. Desmond & Sons (Vasu, Rodgers & Connell Chapel), 32515 Woodward (btwn 13 and 14 Mile), 248-549-0500. Funeral Mass Thursday 10 a.m. at National Shrine of the Little Flower, Woodward Ave. at 12 Mile, Royal Oak. Visitation at the church begins at 9:30 a.m. Entombment Holy Sepulchre Cemetery. Memorial tributes to the American Diabetes Association. View obituary and share memories at www.DesmondFuneralHome.com

[ANDYA]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Well, next year when you come with the Firebird you'll join up with us. Now if you get here for Tuesday we have a private party at Duggan's Irish Pub, Woodward and 13 Mile Rd, I may be able to convince the host to let you join us as my guest. Let me know and hopefully I can also have you park with the Royal Pontiac Club in down town Birmingham on old Woodward.

You also may want to make a quite hike up to Flint on that Dream Cruise Saturday to see a very large event called "Back to the Bricks". Several thousand cars line the downtown Flint streets. Many events going on at the same time there.

A lot of car events happening here all summer long. The two biggest happen on the same weekend.

Well this years Dream Cruise is only about a month away and the Firebird is finished and running! As of now I'm planning on being there hopefully by Wednesday night with some of my friends. The only things left are a few small items to take care of on the car. The one big thing is the trailer as it was submerged under water by Hurricane Sandy. I need to find the time and check it out and make sure everything is OK.

Dr. Schiffer I'm looking forward to meeting you along with the rest of the guys in the Royal Pontiac Club. Hopefully you will be able to save a spot for me for the show on Saturday. Let me know.

Thanks, Andy

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Andy,
Good to talk to you over the weekend. I hope you changed hotels to the Raddsion/Kingsley Inn, Woodward and Long Lake Rd in Bloomfield Hills. General Motors is using this hotel as the gathering point for the new Corvette on Wednesday Dream Cruise Week. They have asked several of the area Corvette clubs to help launch the car. As in past there will be waves of new GM products and individual Corvette heading onto Woodward. Very safe location for your car.
Call me when you hit town. We will be able to work out details for parking with us in downtown Birmingham on "Old Woodward" with the Royal Club. Tom Goad retired PMD director and John "Cheater" / "Mystery Tiger" Politzer will be with us.
I'll introduce you to several behind the scenes corp. guys.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Dream Cruise week...I'll have the Black Bird at Duggan's, Woodward north of 13 Mile Rd, on Tueday afternoon and in Downtown Birmingham on Old Woodward Ave, somewhere between the Birmingham Theater (Merrill Street) and the 555 Building (north of the Chevrolet Display) with the Royal Pontiac Club of America for most of the day.

On Thursday evening I'll have my verdoro green 428 Royal Bobcat '68 GTO convertible at Little Daddy's on Woodward just south of Long Lake Rd. (across from The Raddison/Kingsley Inn in Bloomfield Hills) for the Royal Pontiac meeting from 6:00 PM until approx. 8:00PM.

Things have already been building up for the Woodward Dream Cruise. The official "Kick Off" was on Wednesday night at Duggan's (8/07) sponsored by Chevrolet.

"Time to burn rubber"

[ANDYA]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Andy,
Good to talk to you over the weekend. I hope you changed hotels to the Raddsion/Kingsley Inn, Woodward and Long Lake Rd in Bloomfield Hills. General Motors is using this hotel as the gathering point for the new Corvette on Wednesday Dream Cruise Week. They have asked several of the area Corvette clubs to help launch the car. As in past there will be waves of new GM products and individual Corvette heading onto Woodward. Very safe location for your car.
Call me when you hit town. We will be able to work out details for parking with us in downtown Birmingham on "Old Woodward" with the Royal Club. Tom Goad retired PMD director and John "Cheater" / "Mystery Tiger" Politzer will be with us.
I'll introduce you to several behind the scenes corp. guys.

I called the Raddison right after we got off the phone and they were all booked except for Wednesday night only so I had to stick with the original plan. No big deal, I'm just glad to be going. I will call you on Wednesday night when we get there. I just hope the weather holds out. Thanks, Andy.

[ANDYA]

Well I just got back from the Woodward Dream Cruise with my friend Kenny on Sunday night. All I can say is that we had a great time! What an experience to cruise up and down Woodward in my 69 Bird! Then we would park on the strip and walk around speaking to as many of the locals as we could. The folks from Michigan are great and the quality of cars is fantastic.

I would like to thank Dr. Schiffer and the Royal Pontiac Club for their hospitality. They knew we were coming and invited us to hang out with them on Woodward during the week. Dr. Schiffer took us around and introduced us to lots of interesting people from John Politzer who was a driver for Royal Pontiac to retired engineer Tom Goad (spell?). They all welcomed us and thanked us for making the trip up. On Saturday one of the Club members gave us his parking pass so we could park with the rest of the Club for the big event. (Thanks again, Grant) They invited us for diner and breakfast with them were we had some good conversations about Royal Pontiac, Jim Wangers and street racing. One of the best parts of the trip was when Dr. Schiffer gave us a ride in his 68 Bobcat GTO conv and we wound up racing one of his friends in a Corvette heading north on Woodward. Thanks Dr. Schiffer Kenny and I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate everything you did for us. Andy.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

Well I just got back from the Woodward Dream Cruise with my friend Kenny on Sunday night. All I can say is that we had a great time! What an experience to cruise up and down Woodward in my 69 Bird! Then we would park on the strip and walk around speaking to as many of the locals as we could. The folks from Michigan are great and the quality of cars is fantastic.

I would like to thank Dr. Schiffer and the Royal Pontiac Club for their hospitality. They knew we were coming and invited us to hang out with them on Woodward during the week. Dr. Schiffer took us around and introduced us to lots of interesting people from John Politzer who was a driver for Royal Pontiac to retired engineer Tom Goad (spell?). They all welcomed us and thanked us for making the trip up. On Saturday one of the Club members gave us his parking pass so we could park with the rest of the Club for the big event. (Thanks again, Grant) They invited us for diner and breakfast with them were we had some good conversations about Royal Pontiac, Jim Wangers and street racing. One of the best parts of the trip was when Dr. Schiffer gave us a ride in his 68 Bobcat GTO conv and we wound up racing one of his friends in a Corvette heading north on Woodward. Thanks Dr. Schiffer Kenny and I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate everything you did for us. Andy.

Andy (and Eric) - my apologies for not hooking up with you during the week.

I was out every night (except Thursday) and twice on Saturday; Friday night I was on a mission to find you guys but the traffic southbound was horrible. I think there was an incident or something and the traffic flow never recovered. At any rate we made it within sight of 15 mile (Maple) and could go no further. We made the "U" turn in front of Hunter House and battled our way back north.

I made two loops on Saturday, getting as far south as 9 mile, and kept an eye out for Eric but never saw the GTO or 'bird in the usual haunts.

We'll have to try again next year -

K

[ANDYA]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Andy (and Eric) - my apologies for not hooking up with you during the week.

I was out every night (except Thursday) and twice on Saturday; Friday night I was on a mission to find you guys but the traffic southbound was horrible. I think there was an incident or something and the traffic flow never recovered. At any rate we made it within sight of 15 mile (Maple) and could go no further. We made the "U" turn in front of Hunter House and battled our way back north.

I made two loops on Saturday, getting as far south as 9 mile, and kept an eye out for Eric but never saw the GTO or 'bird in the usual haunts.

We'll have to try again next year -

K

Keith I was looking out for you during the week. I definitely wanted to meet you. We were parked in the parking lot of the book store right off 14 mile at night. On Saturday we were parked in Birmingham on Old Woodward, that's why you didn't see Eric's cars. Hopefully we can meet next time.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

Well I just got back from the Woodward Dream Cruise with my friend Kenny on Sunday night. All I can say is that we had a great time! What an experience to cruise up and down Woodward in my 69 Bird! Then we would park on the strip and walk around speaking to as many of the locals as we could. The folks from Michigan are great and the quality of cars is fantastic.

I would like to thank Dr. Schiffer and the Royal Pontiac Club for their hospitality. They knew we were coming and invited us to hang out with them on Woodward during the week. Dr. Schiffer took us around and introduced us to lots of interesting people from John Politzer who was a driver for Royal Pontiac to retired engineer Tom Goad (spell?). They all welcomed us and thanked us for making the trip up. On Saturday one of the Club members gave us his parking pass so we could park with the rest of the Club for the big event. (Thanks again, Grant) They invited us for diner and breakfast with them were we had some good conversations about Royal Pontiac, Jim Wangers and street racing. One of the best parts of the trip was when Dr. Schiffer gave us a ride in his 68 Bobcat GTO conv and we wound up racing one of his friends in a Corvette heading north on Woodward. Thanks Dr. Schiffer Kenny and I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate everything you did for us. Andy.

Andy and Kenny you are very welcome. Next time I'll try and find more time to take you around and actually take you to a lake!!!!

Too, bad you didn't go to Steve Pasteiner's shop to see them building some of the C5 Commeratives and one off customer Corvettes. Hopefully you've looked up his shop in the net and on Youtube.

Now if you could only close your eyes and imagine what it was like in the '60's and '70's for 1,000's of Woodward cruisers every evening. From 9 Mile Rd all the way to Square Lake Rd. To beable to drop down to a 20 mph roll as we did in my GTO, or coming off a light. Bam hitting a few gears and pulling on some one. This was the scene short quick runs.

Glad you enjoyed our short run against John Banach in his '02 Z06. By the way John being a GM Power Train Engineer designs many of the components on the LS engines including Z06, ZR-1, CTS-V engines and the new Turbo engines.

I don't think we did too bad against John's Z06 considering he has headers, Ram Air and a tune. What do you think?

I'm sure Kenny enjoyed meeting Linda Vaughn and Kristie Hansen. But he looked more star stuck with our Pawn Star.

Here are few pictures from the Cruise. I included John "Cheater" Politzer and Tom Goad.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here are few more pictures for your memory book.

Kenny with his new best friends: Linda Vaughn and Cortney Hansen...Oh yes his new pawn star buddy.
The guy on the mic is one of Tim Allen's good friends, Jim Johnson.

I thought you'd like to see Andy's '69 Firebird. It is a beautiful example of what you would have found in a Royal Bobcat Firebird on Woodward back in the day. A 428 with Ram Air IV, but instead of a special General Kinetics cam Andy has a Nunzi ground cam. Nothing wrong with that.

Oh, The store in the back ground used to be called Auto Zone Hobbies. They actually had the name several years before the auto parts company. They got so tired of telling people they do not carry wiper blades just automotive, magazine and diecast cars. That they changed the name about a month before the cruise.

The group picture includes Jim Wangers' 8 second Monza driver "Fast" Freddie Foreman. Fred hated to be called "Fast Freddie". Like all of Jim's drivers, he was told "don't embarrass the other guy. Only beat him by a car length. A little day light is all that is needed." Some nights the Monza was a 10 second car. The next it was a 11 second or maybe a 9 second. Depened upon who they where racing. They had found the right combination of cubic inchs, nitrous, tires and suspension.

Their were guys that every few weeks would want to try again and again. Most gave up trying to beat certain Wangers' cars. Street racing has always been Jim's passion.

Jim always had a fleet to throw at guys. If you beat one Wangers car Jim would throw the next fastest at you. It was hard to bea money!

By the way. The new red Camaro who's grill is in the picture is one of the just released 1LE models.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here are a couple of gems I found in Birmingham on Dream Cruise Day. Parked on Old Woodward a couple of blocks south of the Black Bird was Steve Lisk's red Hemi Challenger R/T. Steve's car was one of the subject of Brook Yates' "Car and Driver" article in 1976 about street racing. He didn't race in the article it Was the late Joe Ruggirello and his Mustang II against a Dart.

The other car I spoted was a 1961 Pontiac Ventura with an original Royal Racing Team decal in the quarter window and some neat old exhaust dumps. Look closely under the car and you will see them.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

On Tuesday of Dream Cruise week I've was invited to a private party at Duggan's Irish Pub called Pizza On The Wall. The guest cars line up with trunks open and pizza's are severed from the several cars along the wall. The Black Bird was one of them. Tim Stoner is pictured next to the open trunk. Tim is also pictured in front of the Black Bird just after his ride.

Duggan's is used as the epie center for the Dream Cruise for several years.

The host of the event, Tim Stoner, has asked me for a ride in the Black Bird. But for whatever reason it never happened. Well, this year was different. As I pulled into Duggan's lot I was being directed into my reserved spot in the front when Tim appeared. I asked him if he wanted a ride before I parked? I have never seen some one move so fast!

Tim was so execited that he could not find the seat belt. I said you better find it before we get onto Woodward. He buckled up and we merged onto Woodward. I looped around to the northbound side of Woodward. As I slowly moved into a lane I asked Tim if there had been any police in the area. He said no. I hit the gas about 3/4 ran the car just shy of red line and hit second. Ran second just shy of red line and backed down. I got into the left turn around lane to head south. As we sat there Tim finally spoke. Shaking he said look at my arm hair it's staning up. I said I took it easy because I hadn't run the car hard in a number of years. As Tim gave me a blank stare he said once you hit the gas all I saw was hood and sky.

We circled into Northwood and back into Duggan's parking lot. There Tim was asked how was it? A few wished they had a camera for this event. The exhaust noise caused people inside Dugan's heads to turn.

I was just glad I didn't draw the attention of the Royal Oak Police.

Other people on hand is past contract Ford Thunder Bolt and Mercury Comet racer Kenny Vogt. Kenny and John Cheater Polizter are old friends. John ran a Factory Ford in 1964. Google Kenny Vogt's name. His car where pained yellow.

Kenny who's dad was a Ford engineer in upper management and was able to get him a summer job at Dearborn Tube and Steel. Kenny has many stories about "back in the day". Kenny lived near me at Maple Rd and Telegraph. As he said just 3 miles to Woodward. John Politzer said, it was not uncommon to stop by Kenny's house and a group of Ford engineers would be wrenching on his car.

One of Kenny's good friends was Pontiac racer Tony Knieper. Remeber that name? Tony worked for Stan Long Pontiac and ordered the Black Bird for his brother Mike.

It was good to have lived back then!

[brut4s]

Love these stories Dr Schiffer!

[Greg Reid]

Yeah....and the pics!