Non Pontiac Motors in Pontiacs includes factory 403,305,350 Chevy, Buick V6,
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  #61  
Old 08-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Donovan Donovan is offline
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Although not Pontiac related, maybe these picture of one of my other projects won't bore you too much. I finally took my CoupeDeVille for it's first test drive today. It had been almost three years since I last drove the car. There is still alot to do to it. The most urgent thing to do is get an alignment. Everthing in the front end was replaced including conversion to 94-96 impala tubular control arms. I just adjusted tie-rod ends by sight, good enough to drive it to alignment shop.

Engine dyno sheet - 511HP at almost 600 Ft/Lb torque

More info! What is the build on the engine? 500HP and 600 pounds??? Nice.
What intake are you using that allows the a/c compressor to bolt in?

  #62  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:19 PM
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The engine is a Potter Cadillac Crate Motor, Cadillac heads are CNC ported, the CAM is a custom Comp Cams with 233I-236E duration at 0.050, the intake is an Edelbrock manifold that had the Edelbrock logo removed and then painted GM corporate Blue to make it look like a stock intake. The Edelbrock intake doesn't flow enough and the power peaks at 4800 RPM. There are currently no other street intakes that flow enough. There are a couple of hard core racing intakes that will flow enough, but they are not really for street use. BTW the engine produces over 400 ft-lb of torque just off of idle.

The AC compressor is a Sanden 508, I modified the stock AC bracket to mount the compressor. I used a stock AC bracket by welding up the existing compressor mounting holes and re-drilling. The holes had to be welded because the new holes partially overlap the existing holes. I don't have the AC working, I just mounted a new compressor in order to be ready to complete the AC and it’s also necessary for the belt to fit. The belt doesn't fit without the compressor being there. The accessory brackets are from the original 425 engine.

The nice thing about this car is the large availability of parts. Any suspension, brake or rear-end parts from the 94-96 Impala SS bolts on. I have just installed SpeedTech tubular A-Arms and coil springs from an Impala. If you noticed the wheels are from a 94-96 Impala. They are a direct fit with no modification necessary.

There is still many things to due, some of the major items: Replace 32 year old rear-end with one from an Impala, install dual exhaust, make headers, convert to EFI, redo interior. However the Leman's will get most of my available time for the next several months. I just wanted to get the Deville to the point of being drivable.

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  #63  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:29 AM
Donovan Donovan is offline
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Speechless! Great project, so many options. So sleeper. Nice work on the bracket.

I thought I read years back that you could use Cleveland intakes with a spacer or something?

  #64  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:57 PM
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Project Updates

I pulled the carpet out to check the condition of the floor. I was very happy to see there were no problems. The picture looks far worse than the floor really is, this is mostly dirt appearing to be rust. A wire brush removed this junk immediately leaving a black coating (POR 15?) Removing the black coating left clean metal. After what I found in the trunk I didn't know if I would find a floor pan full of bondo.



I also mounted the fuel pressure regulator. There was not enough clearance between the back of the gas tank the axel and the exhaust pipes to mount the regulator at the back of the tank. The regulator was also too large to fit inside the frame rail so I mounted it at a frame rail brace near the driver side door. The return line is 1/4" and should be larger but it appears to be impossible to install a new line with the body on the frame. I will use the 1/4" return line for the time being, in order to test the engine/trans before I start the body off restoration. Then it will be easy to run new fuel lines.



I also made the air intake. I ordered a summit cone style air filter with the same size specs as a K&N and got a K&N filter in white box with a summit part number. The tube size is 4".



I mounted the surge tank. This tank was probably not the best choice. I didn't notice that the large inlet is 1" diameter and the steam inlet is 1/2" until I started to mount the tank. Since I had the tank too long to return it I just bought adapters to convert the 1/2" line to 1/4" and the 1" line to 5/8". One of the Corvette tanks probably would have worked better.



Wiring. After removing the unnecessary wires from the engine harness only a few wires remained. The starter wire, oil pressure, temp sensor, alternator light, brake light and 12V feed. The alternator llight wire is probably worthless, I think the computer gives you a check engine light and at the momement can't think of any way to make the gen light work. (Although I haven't tried very hard). It is necesary to make changes to the wiring so that the ECM is powered in both "RUN" and "CRANK" positions of the ignition switch. A quick bump of the ignition key engages the starter so electrically I'm ready to go as soon as everthing else is taken care of. I have also started the fan wiring. I have completed it except for running the wires to the fan. My connector kit had female termials when I needed male terminals so I waiting for replacements.



If all my parts, hoses, terminals etc arrive monday, I might be able to crank the engine next week.

New shop equiptment. I got lucky and got a stove for free. My girl friends neighbor had put this out as trash. Now I have a oven to do powder coating. I have the Eastwood Powder Coating gun, just didn't have a oven to bake the parts in.


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  #65  
Old 10-22-2009, 11:26 PM
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Great News! The engine fired on the first turn of the key.

On first power up the ECM turns the fuel pump on for a few seconds to pressurize the system. After letting the pump run and shut down, I checked for leaks, I did have a minor leak at one of the connections. Tighten it down a little more and the leak is fixed. I then jumped the fuel pump relay to force the fuel pump on for about 20 seconds, at which point my test gauge showed about 50 lbs of pressure. Turned the key to crank and the engine fired up instantly, it was so loud that I immediately turned it off. After a few seconds I realized that this thing is the loudest engine I have ever been around. I crank it again at let it idle for about 10 seconds before turning it off. It seemed to idle smoothly, just too loud to leave it running. This LS3 is louder than a jet taking off.

The old exhaust system is still dangling under the car about 5 inches away from the end of the headers. If I can figure some cheap way to hook it up I may try so I can get a few minutes of running before taking everything back apart.

I was planning to drive the car about 50 miles before starting the restoration, but I have concluded that the rear axel is damaged and probably would not last 50 miles so the restoration begins this weekend.


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  #66  
Old 10-23-2009, 10:41 AM
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That engine looks too low in the compartment. A MagnaCharger in place of the factory intake, would raise the height and make it more aethetically pleasing.

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  #67  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:16 PM
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The engine looks low because it is a short engine. He's spent an aweful lot of money trying make his Pontiac a chevelle. But I think eveyone knows my opinion of the way over rated LS series engines in Pontiacs.

  #68  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:09 PM
fbrown fbrown is offline
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To the poster against use of LS engines in Pontiacs. (His post was deleted)

I though I would address some of the reasons why I chose a LS engine over a tradional Pontiac engine.

My 06 GTO which is a Pontiac and has a LS2 engine. This car gets 25 mpg highway, 18 mpg around town and has 400HP. The car weights almost 4000 Lbs and is capable of high 12 second 1/4 mile times. The car cranks instantly in very cold weather and will pull immediately with no drivability problems. LS engines are used in everything from Chevys to Cadillac’s

Some people have also said that you can build a Pontiac engine that will make as much power and get the same gas mileage as a LS engine for less money. I will concede the power part, but nothing else. A Butler Crate engine starts at $8000 and would probably cost another $1000 by the time you have it dyno tuned and add a few other necessary options. Fuel injection for this engine also starts at $3500 and goes up. A Butler crate Pontiac engine with EFI would cost at least $12,000 and probably more. It would be very doubtful that this engine would idle smoothly and it certainly would not be capable of 25 mpg highway mileage. The LS3 engine is half the cost of the Butler solution and is a turn key solution with no dyno tuning required. The LS3 weights about 400 LBS, the Butler engine is probably close to 600 LBS, unless you order the aluminum Block which is $4600 dollars additional.

My purpose of using the LS engine over a Pontiac engine is to have the same reliability as my 06 GTO, allow every day use of the car with great gas mileage, no drivability problems, and no cold crank problems. I expect my Lemans to handle, stop and accelerate as good as my 06 GTO.

While I agree some rare Pontiac's should keep their original engine such as RA IV GTO's, SD455's etc, my car is a LeMans and came with no engine.

I also will concede that you can build a engine for less yourself, rather than buy a crate engine, however there are too many things that can go wrong, it takes a lot of time, comes with no waranity, and I would rather be driving my car rather than spending time building an engine, especially when I believe the Pros’ that build them every day will do a better job than I could. If you are buying a crate engine as opposed to building one, it would be impossible to get a Pontiac engine for less than a LS engine. If you are buying used, LS engines are common in junk yards, when was the last time you saw a Pontiac 455 or 400?

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  #69  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:20 PM
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Restoration has started.

Here is the test fit of the right quarter panel



Test fit of the rear window shelf. I still have the driver side quarter to do before I can start welding.


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  #70  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:06 PM
Donovan Donovan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbrown View Post
To the poster against use of LS engines in Pontiacs. (His post was deleted)

I though I would address some of the reasons why I chose a LS engine over a tradional Pontiac engine.

My 06 GTO which is a Pontiac and has a LS2 engine. This car gets 25 mpg highway, 18 mpg around town and has 400HP. The car weights almost 4000 Lbs and is capable of high 12 second 1/4 mile times. The car cranks instantly in very cold weather and will pull immediately with no drivability problems. LS engines are used in everything from Chevys to Cadillac’s

Some people have also said that you can build a Pontiac engine that will make as much power and get the same gas mileage as a LS engine for less money. I will concede the power part, but nothing else. A Butler Crate engine starts at $8000 and would probably cost another $1000 by the time you have it dyno tuned and add a few other necessary options. Fuel injection for this engine also starts at $3500 and goes up. A Butler crate Pontiac engine with EFI would cost at least $12,000 and probably more. It would be very doubtful that this engine would idle smoothly and it certainly would not be capable of 25 mpg highway mileage. The LS3 engine is half the cost of the Butler solution and is a turn key solution with no dyno tuning required. The LS3 weights about 400 LBS, the Butler engine is probably close to 600 LBS, unless you order the aluminum Block which is $4600 dollars additional.

My purpose of using the LS engine over a Pontiac engine is to have the same reliability as my 06 GTO, allow every day use of the car with great gas mileage, no drivability problems, and no cold crank problems. I expect my Lemans to handle, stop and accelerate as good as my 06 GTO.

While I agree some rare Pontiac's should keep their original engine such as RA IV GTO's, SD455's etc, my car is a LeMans and came with no engine.

I also will concede that you can build a engine for less yourself, rather than buy a crate engine, however there are too many things that can go wrong, it takes a lot of time, comes with no waranity, and I would rather be driving my car rather than spending time building an engine, especially when I believe the Pros’ that build them every day will do a better job than I could. If you are buying a crate engine as opposed to building one, it would be impossible to get a Pontiac engine for less than a LS engine. If you are buying used, LS engines are common in junk yards, when was the last time you saw a Pontiac 455 or 400?
Nice work FB!

The above was a perfectly articulate and civilized response to someone expressing sour grapes. It would be nice if folks could relax a bit and appreciate hardwork for what it is.

  #71  
Old 11-16-2009, 05:43 PM
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Great project! It's your car and you don't have to justify anything. Like you said; this is a basic Lemans that was in bad shape, not a numbers matching Judge. If anything, you should be congratulated for bringing back a car that could have easily been chopped up for parts.

I'll be checking back for updates!

-J

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  #72  
Old 11-16-2009, 09:30 PM
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Nice response FB! My only advice would be to ignore the negative comments and do the project for yourself, no one else. I bought a LeMans and not a GTO so I could make it my own and drive the wheels off it without feeling guilty. I get more enjoyment out of going on a cruise with my kids and doing a burn-out here and there than I would staring at a numbers matching museum piece. I'd rather see a car like yours that shows a lot of creativity and hard work over one that's just like thousands of others. Your car will make people stop and stare, ask questions, and take a real interest, not just ask "what's it worth?" All that really matters in the end is that you're happy with it. The heck with everybody else.

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  #73  
Old 11-19-2009, 01:07 AM
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Project Updates:

I hooked up the old exhaust system; I found exhaust reducers 3" to 2.5" then a 2.5" to 2". The old exhaust system uses glass packs, it’s still loud, but no long breaks windows with the engine running . I will install the Edelbrock LS conversion exhaust system after completing the body restoration. I have not run the engine very long since I am unable to check the transmission fluid level. I'm still waiting for a Camaro trans dipstick. It was not stocked by any Atlanta area dealer and had to be special ordered.

In the mean while I have been doing body work. The quarter panels didn't drop in as cleanly as I hoped and will require a lot of work to make them look show quality. Work that pushes my fabrication skills to the limit and beyond. So in the mean time I have been doing rust repair to get ready for my nightmare quarter panel installation.

Here is a picture of the before,



Replacement of some of the missing metal.



The upper right rear window channel patch.



The upper left window channel cut out, there was not much left of this piece



Almost done with making the patch, final trimming and tweaking still to do.



And the tools to make the patch. It took about 20 minutes to get the patch cut and shaped as show above.


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  #74  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by fbrown View Post
Restoration has started.

Here is the test fit of the right quarter panel



Test fit of the rear window shelf. I still have the driver side quarter to do before I can start welding.

Hey i see in the 2nd pick that the 1/4 you have, includes quite a bit of the glass channel. Is this a re-pop 1/4 or an NOS? Just curious because I have a huge gaping hole in the glass channel in that area on my '69 GTO. I didn't realize panels were available that included part of the glass channel. If they were re-pop'd where did you get them? PY?

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  #75  
Old 11-19-2009, 09:48 AM
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It's a Dynacorn quarter (Purchased from the Parts Place), the biggest problem is it doesn't fit well at the top where it slides under the roof panel. See my post http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=615656
for more pictures. I still not sure of the best way to resolve the top fitment issue.

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  #76  
Old 11-19-2009, 02:46 PM
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You're making great progress. I admire the skills and the patience it takes to get something like this on the road. I've followed your project for a while now because it's similar to the one I've been building since '05. It's up and running and goes to the body shop in about 3-4 weeks. I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Keep up the good work.

Tony
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  #77  
Old 11-22-2009, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by fbrown View Post
I have not run the engine very long since I am unable to check the transmission fluid level. I'm still waiting for a Camaro trans dipstick. It was not stocked by any Atlanta area dealer and had to be special ordered.
Frederic,

Did you order a 4th-gen Camaro/Firebird dipstick and tube?

How were you able to figure out that it would work? I noticed that earlier on in your thread that you had purchased a universal-type of trans dipstick and tube, I guess that didn't work out.

Please share the part numbers of the dipstick and tube, the trans dipstick assembly is one of the items on my 'need to buy' list.

Great progress you're making on the body panel replacement, that's quite an undertaking.

Bart

  #78  
Old 11-22-2009, 11:47 PM
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My transmission shipped with a truck bell housing and the generic tube fit fine. When I received a Camaro bell housing the tube didn't come close to fitting. I Ordered a tube and dipstick for a 2002 Camaro. I still had to bend and modify the Camaro part. If you use the Camaro tube you will need to test fit/modify with the engine/transmission not installed in the car. I had to remove the engine and transmission in order to make it fit.

BTW - I still don't have a solution to seal the TC from road dirt. I figure I will tackle this the next time I remove the engine.

Tube - 12552595 - 17.11 from Rockauto
Dipstick - 12560267 - 16.27 from a local dealer

A far as the engine is concerned everthing has been hooked up except the cruse control and temperature guage. I have not found a good location for the temperature sender. I'm using the stock GTO guage and sending unit. I am able to check several engine paramerters by using a Scan gauge. http://www.scangauge.com/

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  #79  
Old 11-23-2009, 12:54 AM
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I would assume my 4L70E is equipped with a truck bellhousing since I requested that it be be spec'd out like a Trail Blazer SS trans. Does this one pictured below look like a truck bellhousing?



Perhaps your old generic dipstick and tube would work for my car, let me know if you'd like to sell it.

You say you swapped the truck bellhousing out for a Camaro bellhousing, was this for additional transmission tunnel clearance? I did have to beat on my tunnel quite a bit to clear the large stiffening ribs on the top of my bellhousing near where it mated up to the trans case.

On the issue of temp senders, I ended up buying a new Autometer electric water temp gauge and sender to replace the mechanical Autometer gauge I had been using with the old 455. My base model Tempest only has idiot lights for temp and oil pressure and I won't be using them anymore.

The Autometer electric temp sender uses a 1/8 NPT thread and the mechanical sender uses a 1/2 NPT thread. Unfortunately the stock Pontiac temp senders are also 1/2 NPT and there's no place on the LS3 to install one that size.

The plug that I removed from the passenger side head looks to be a 12mm straight thread. There should be an adapter fitting available that will mate the 12mm thread to 1/8 NPT:



The 12mm plug was removed from this location:


  #80  
Old 11-24-2009, 01:40 PM
Donovan Donovan is offline
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I was able to buy adapter brass bushings for senders right of the rack at an O'Reilly auto. Parts store. Autozone, and Advance auto all could order the same kit. made by Equus.

see here -
http://www.autobarn.net/eqoilpreselt.html
It had the 1/8 pipe adapter you need.

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