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Old 05-06-2020, 12:14 AM
John V. John V. is offline
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I have had good luck with Fram Ultra filters. I know a lot of guys are anti-Fram. I know I have easier choices.

But I'm just curious if anybody has used a Fram Ultra on any traditional Pontiac V8?

Fram does not list one, only the PH-25 Extra Guard. The Wix with anti-drainback valve is 51258.

I did some research and found the closest dimensional match to the Wix is the Ultra XG9837 (the XG3675 is inexplicably identical). It is a bit shorter and a bit smaller in diameter but the mounting thread is the same and the gasket dimension is pretty close.

Any reason to believe it wouldn't work?

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Old 05-06-2020, 11:32 AM
Chief of the 60's Chief of the 60's is offline
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Contact Fram's tech line for a part number - 888-553-3726

Ask if they have an HP number filter.

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Old 05-06-2020, 12:54 PM
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Why are you stuck on FRAM? PF24 AC DELCO if you want a cheap filter

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Old 05-06-2020, 01:51 PM
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Fram's standard filters are cheap--cheaply made, but the largest selling filters made today. I've used them many times for years with not a single problem.

But, all the anti-Fram rants I see completely ignore the higher quality filters they sell. There are Extra-Guard, Tough-Guard, Ultra Synthetic, and Racing. All of these meet or exceed OEM specs for oil filters.

I'm not attempting to create controversy, but believe we're worrying too much about oil filter choice. Wix, NAPA, and possibly some other premium filters--- I believe are manufactured in the US. I believe all others are manufactured outside the USA, including AC. The older AC filters I have are marked Made in USA, but now are made in Mexico.

I've read a number of oil filter tests. I recall one of them rated the Fram Extra Guard the best of all filters tested.

In any case, I believe oil choice is much more important than oil filter choice for our old Pontiacs. Flat tappet cams, as we all know, require zinc for extreme pressure lube. We know that Valvoline VR1 conventional or synthetic, Amsoil Racing, Penn Grade, Royal Purple, and others contain adequate zinc to protect flat tappet cams. If you're not sure, it's relatively simple to find a phone number to check with the manufacturer.

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Old 05-06-2020, 03:56 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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Thanks for all the replies. I realize this is a small sample so not surprised that nobody has ever tried the Ultra before.

Racing filters are not intended for street use from what I've understood. They allow high flow but don't filter so good.

The Ultra is intended for longer service intervals made possible by full synthetic oils. They include a metal screen to support the filter media during this extended change interval. I'm guessing other premium filters have similar screens but I know Ultra does.

The Ultra media can remove up to 99% of "dirt" at the specified micron size. It is superior media to the Extra Guard (PH-25) which I believe is rated for 95%. Again, I'm sure other premium filters offer similar superior filter media.

I spoke to Steven on the Fram Tech line. He confirmed what I already believed to be true about the Ultra vs. Extra Guard (metal screen, superior media), why I choose the Ultra for my daily drivers and have for many years.

He reviewed the dimensions of the XG9837 vs. the PH-25. He checked to see if they had an Ultra with the same base gasket of the PH-25 but they do not.

I then asked his opinion if the very small base gasket difference would likely matter. I realize there is no way for him to know for sure (and I'm not looking for an implied warranty). He explained that there is a lawn mower Ultra (I had reviewed the specs for it yesterday) that he said some people have tried on car engines, he understands that some people say it works and some say it doesn't due to some minor base gasket dimensional difference compared to whatever filter was specified for their engine.

Here is the base gasket differences:

Ultra XG9837 listed first, Extra Guard PH-25 listed 2nd.

ID: 2.453", 2.422" (Ultra has a BIGGER ID by 0.031" or 1/32")
OD: 2.766", 2.797" (Ultra has a SMALLER OD by 0.031" or 1/32")

Net result, the WIDTH of the Ultra Base Gasket is 0.156" (5/32") and the WIDTH of the Extra Guard Base Gasket is 0.188" (3/16").

Since the Ultra Base Gasket ID is bigger, there shouldn't be any interference in the oil flow path.

Hard to imagine that the narrower gasket width will prevent a good seal but that remains unknown.

The Ultra can OD is 2.98", the Extra Guard is 3.781". The Extra Guard can capacity is nominally 3/4 Qt., not discounting for the internals. The Ultra can capacity is nominally 1/2 Qt. I'm not gonna worry about 8 oz. of less oil capacity.

I also had Steven look at the XG3675. He confirmed that it does appear to be identical to the XG9837, he had no explanation for why. I asked if perhaps one didn't have the anti-drainback valve but he says all Ultra's include the ADBV. At another forum it was suggested that one of them originally lacked the ADBV which may or may not be true. He checked and both filters are in active production.

Call me crazy but I plan to try the Ultra XG9837 for my '64 GTO.

Dick, good advice on oil choices.

My go to is Mobil 1, Full Synthetic European Car Formula 0W-40, 1100 ppm zinc, 1000 ppm phosphorous.

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Old 06-25-2020, 04:55 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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Oil change in progress. Picked up the Ultra XG-9837 at my local Walmart (I planned to compare the XG-3675 side by side but they don't carry that one).

Anyway, the filter is definitely smaller but it installed fine.

But I have a question about the fill plug. My late model cars all have used a washer on the fill plug. Don't know when that got started or why it became necessary but I don't recall using a washer on the fill plug back in the day.

My engine builder had installed a brass washer on what I believe is an original fill plug. I don't know if it was already on the plug or if he added it.

Either way, it is an extremely tight fit. I had to hold it with pliers to remove or install it on the plug (it had partially backed off when I removed the plug from the pan). It also has a cup on the ID, not a flat washer, so that the cup would have to fit into the pan threads although the cup is pretty shallow. Not even sure how it would do that without digging into the threads.

Simple question, do I need to use a washer or should the plug seal without one?

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Old 06-25-2020, 05:11 PM
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The original washer was nylon material from GM, and no they won't seal without a washer.

Link to Fel Pro washer that looks to be a rubber composite type material:

https://www.autozone.com/gaskets/eng...ULEQ&gclsrc=ds

Link to the nylon style OEM type:

https://www.autozone.com/external-en...lse&model=true

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  #8  
Old 06-25-2020, 05:13 PM
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Every drain plug on every car I've ever owned, older or newer, had some kind of a washer. Crushable aluminum, brass or copper or nylon.

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Old 06-25-2020, 05:35 PM
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Thanks guys. Proves my memory isn't perfect. Hopefully not Alzheimers just yet!

Will head to the auto parts store tomorrow.

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Old 06-25-2020, 06:14 PM
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John

The two filters you asked about cross to the WIX 51522 and 51522XP respectively.

Both are primarily Chevy or Coporate V8 and V6 applications.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/In...%20XG3675&o=me

When you go to the link, the WIX part # will be a hotlink to the specs on that filter. When you go to that there will be a hot link to "All Applications".

  #11  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:44 PM
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Ok, I’m confused here.

What is a “fill plug” ???

I know of a “drain plug” which is located at the bottom of an engine.

An “oil fill cap” is up top that pushes on or twist on.

Both the (drain and fill) take a type of washer.

Chris

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Old 06-25-2020, 09:11 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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Champ, looks like Wix offers the XP for extended synthetic oil change intervals, seems like it has features similar to the Fram Ultra.

But the correct Wix filter and what was on my engine is the Wix 51258. Doesn’t look like they offer it in the XP line either so the 51522XP is a smaller filter, same as the Fram Ultra XG9837. If the Fram doesn’t leak I’ll be a happy camper using it. The Wix would be fine if you prefer that brand and if it also doesn’t leak.

Chris, sorry about that. I am dealing with a small leak from the Muncie Trans Fill Plug so I crossed myself up when referring to the oil pan drain plug.

But now I have a question, what type of washer is used with the standard ‘64 GTO push on oil fill cap?

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Old 06-25-2020, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V. View Post
But now I have a question, what type of washer is used with the standard ‘64 GTO push on oil fill cap?
My turn, I’m crossed up, sorry.

Both style ‘64 push on oil fill caps (breather and closed) don’t seem to be fitted with any washer.

Both style ‘65 twist oil fill caps (breather and closed) have a thin gasket.

Chris.
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2) 66 GTO Survivor. “Factory” Cameo Ivory Paint with Red Pinstripe, Red Interior. OEM Numbers Matching Powertrain. Tri-Power (OEM Vacuum Linkage), Automatic "YR" code (1759 Produced). Fremont Built (01B), with the Rare 614 Option.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:37 AM
John V. John V. is offline
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Taking way too long to do this oil change.

Here is the brass or copper washer that I found on the drain plug when I pulled it.

You can see how it isn't a flat washer. Also, the ID is so tight I needed to grab it with pliers and turn a wrench on the plug to remove it (or install it).
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:46 AM
John V. John V. is offline
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At the NAPA website, I searched for '64 GTO Oil Drain Plug Gasket, they came back with 2 choices.

Both are Nylon.

Fel-Pro 70822, same as the one Brad linked from AutoZone.

The other was from NAPA Solutions p/n NOE 7041078.

My local store had both in stock. The Fel-Pro was in packaging that probably added a dollar to the price. Online it was priced at $1.33 but in the store it was more than $2.

The NOE was $0.79 online and in the store,

I chose it because it has a larger OD, 0.988" vs the Fel-Pro at 0.900".

See the pix, the NOE seems to be a perfect match for the OD of the plug flange and slid on easily over the threads.

Perfect size I think.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:29 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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I already had the Fram Ultra filter installed yesterday.

I installed the plug and tightened it up hoping that I wasn't over or under tightening it.

I then added 5.5 Qts. of Mobil 1 0W-40 (high zinc and phosphorous as mentioned earlier in the thread).

No immediate signs of a leak so I fired it up. Ran several minutes and as I've never had leak issues, I tend to forget to quickly check for leaks. I sat at the wheel keeping an eye on my pressure gauge. All good after a few minutes so I shut it down.

First thing I notice is smoke rising from about the middle of the RH exhaust manifold. Crap, it's leaking. Check underneath and just to the passenger side of where it had been dripping from the unplugged drain hole overnight I had a new small puddle of fresh oil on the concrete.

I checked as best I could but didn't notice an obvious source. Walked away in frustration, needed a trouble light to get a better look anyway.

Came back with the light. Inspected underneath. Nothing obvious so I fired it up again.

Since the Oil Filter is an experiment, I checked it thoroughly but see no oil around the filter adapter at the filter gasket mating surface.

Ditto at the plug with the new nylon washer/gasket, no leak.

After running for a couple minutes it starts smoking again. Looking from the top, it looks to be smoking off right at the center of the RH manifold.

I should mention that the engine was rebuilt along with restoration of the entire car and I finally got to drive it after 29 years of disassembled slumber last year. I put on 500 miles thru the summer.

I was disappointed in how much oil it seemed to be using and noticed a good bit of oil puddling in a drain pan under the car. I was told to expect drips but felt this was more than I could stand. All winter I'd been wondering if I was in need of rear main seal work. I was told it is a BOP type seal, not the original rope seal.

I also noticed while I changed the oil that oil had been splashing on stuff underneath. Splash stains are on the bottom of the RH exhaust pipe from about the bend to about a foot or so rearward. I wiped oil off the floor pan and wherever else I saw it.

Now as I try to track down the source of a leak that I realize I can't ignore, I'm thinking maybe the rear main isn't leaking as much as I was previously imagining. From underneath (this would be so much easier if I had a lift!) I tried to look for any telltale oil tracking.

Of course, I'm fearing the worst, a crack in the head or leaking from a head bolt.

But hoping it is something simple. There looks to be oil that might be coming from the lower edge of the RH valve cover.

Looked at the LH cover and don't see similar oil staining on that side. My car is an early build so the LH cover does not have the grommet hole that was used after Dec. I mention that because I'm wondering if it is possible for the Oil Fill Tube in the RH valve cover to leak. I didn't see an obvious sign that it is leaking there but haven't ruled it out yet.

I'm hoping it might just be the RH valve cover gasket leaking.

Looking for advice on whether that sounds right. Or if anybody has a suggestion for where else the oil could be leaking from that is burning off at the center of the RH exh manifold.

And if it is likely to be a valve cover leak, do I simply try tightening the valve cover bolts or is there a more sure-fire way of stopping it from leaking from the lower edge of the valve cover?

  #17  
Old 06-26-2020, 12:38 PM
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You mean the passenger side, right? I once put the wrong sized filter on and ended up with a good sized puddle.

I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge with a copper tube going to the filter housing. Do you have one, too? Did you break it? (Done that, too.)

If not, check the filter again. That’s sure what it sounds like.

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Old 06-26-2020, 01:51 PM
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Try snugging up the valve cover bolts.

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Old 06-26-2020, 02:13 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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Pix might help, they seem to show the leakage better than I was seeing by eye.

The Oil Pressure Gauge is an electrical Autometer unit. Tee used to keep the electrical idiot light sender too. The fittings at filter adapter seem pretty clean and dry.

The new filter (which was the reason I originally started this thread) is not "correct" according to the Fram application listing but it fits.

In any event, the filter is clean and dry and no leakage evidence seen at the filter gasket flange area on the adapter.

If I snug the cover bolts, do I risk "bowing" the cover in the middle, making it potentially worse?

Is there a recommended gasket that would tend to work better than some other type?

Check the pix. The last pic was taken blind to see what it would show right under the gasket.

Let me know what you think.
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  #20  
Old 06-26-2020, 02:18 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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The camera also picked up similar staining on the side of the head below the LH valve cover just not as heavy as on the right side.

The pic here is the staining on the exhaust pipe that I mentioned from last summer's driving. You can also see the leak from the Muncie Fill Plug in the background (unrelated to the oil leak I'm chasing but also needs to be resolved).
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