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Old 06-26-2020, 02:20 PM
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John, probably what happened with the copper gasket was at sometime it was tightened more than it needed to be. Being that copper is very malleable, but has a low memory to return to original shape, it flattened out, narrowing the center hole ID so that it was tight on the plug. Just compare it to putting a solid piece of copper wire in a vise, it won't ever return to original form. Plastics done the same thing, many times return to original form, or close to original form.

In my career working on aerial lift machines, the rubbing blocks that guide boom sections as the slide in and out of each other are made of nylon, they last a long time being subjected to abrasives, and heavy loading when fully extended supporting a load. On some of the older machines they tried bronze rubbing blocks, but they wore out much more rapidly than the nylon ones. Now virtually every aerial lift has nylon blocks.

The nylon washers sometimes split from center to outside if over tightened, and as they age the nylon becomes more brittle. They don't flatten out as they aren't as malleable as the copper is and seem to have better memory to return to original dimensions. They seem to last quite along time though, it may outlive you and me............

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  #22  
Old 06-26-2020, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by John V. View Post
The camera also picked up similar staining on the side of the head below the LH valve cover just not as heavy as on the right side.

The pic here is the staining on the exhaust pipe that I mentioned from last summer's driving. You can also see the leak from the Muncie Fill Plug in the background (unrelated to the oil leak I'm chasing but also needs to be resolved).
I've found the rubber (neoprene gaskets) work well. GM came our with them in the mid 70s and they are superior to the cork in my experience. I seal the upper side to the valve cover and leave the head side without any sealer. Of course the sheet metal cover must be flat to begin with.

If the engine has much blowby, every gasket and seal will become a possible outlet for an oil leak. Right side of the engine includes, valve covers distributor gasket missing, valley cover leaking and running rearward, dipstick tube and dipstick seal (especially if the ring seal is marginal), and of course, oil pressure sender.

That's all I can think of right off the top of my head.

If you're not sure of the blowby and ring seal, there is a fairly simple test to see if crankcase pressure is within acceptable limits.

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  #23  
Old 06-26-2020, 05:37 PM
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Brad, I'm pretty confident in the engine builder, I don't think blowby is my issue. Doesn't seem to be leaking from anywhere else. I would guess a lot of blowby would show up in the mesh of my original '64 push on oil fill cap but not in evidence, mesh not soaked, and no oil spraying out of the stack that I've noticed.

The gaskets are not cork, they are black so likely neoprene. If the gasket set I supplied was used, they should be Fel-Pro. I do not know if any sealer was used, I'm trying to find out.

I've done some searching on this forum. Others have had valve cover leaks and some advice on best technique to avoid leaks given. RTV to glue to covers, Hylomar Universal Blue between the head and cover.

Worst leakage seems to be at the center so I'm really thinking my valve covers aren't flat. Some advice too about how to flatten them out too.

Guess I gotta start removing them. Was hoping to just drive it but too much oil is making a mess underneath, I can't just ignore it.

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Old 06-26-2020, 07:20 PM
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I use a straight edge on the sheetmetal to check for bowing, distortion. I use a bench vise opened up wide enough to set both edges of the valve cover on to work the sheetmetal to straighten it. That's how I do it, seems to work for me for many years.

I use RTV to glue the gasket to the valve cover, but you can use whatever you choose to. The heads are milled flat on the sealing surface so that side isn't the problem, the flexible valve cover is the place leaks usually happen.

If you use cast aluminum covers the problems are lessened, but I realize you're not going to use anything other than a stock GM cover on your car.

One other thing, the builder could have done a perfect job, but detonation can break a ring, or a ring land in a second. I have zero idea of what compression ratio you have, but trying to run the stock compression ratio with today's fuels can break parts that would have been fine with the fuels from the 60s.

My first experience was when trying to run a premium leaded fuel engine was in the late 70s. I was trying to run a perfectly running 65 Bonneville 389 on the only fuel available. In a street car I ruined it in less than a week because of the low octane.

Around the same time I also blew a hole in a forged piston, fresh 428 HO stock car engine in one night of racing. Every piston in the engine was ruined but one. I even doctored the fuel with octane booster, what a waste of time and money. I discussed the problem with Nunzi, and went to low compression 71 400 heads, problem solved.

FWIW. Your builder may have addressed that, when he built the engine, and if he did you should have no worries. It was a suggestion for something to look at because I simply don't know all the facts in your particular engine build.

Wishing you luck finding the leak, and correcting it.

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Old 06-26-2020, 09:35 PM
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Brad, thanks for all the input.

You mentioned earlier of a simple test to check for crankcase pressure.

Can you describe the method? Or maybe a link?

I know anything is possible but aside from the external oil mess, I’ve had no issues.

No tail pipe smoke, no ugly noises. It starts easily and idles nicely. It is a pretty stock build. We didn’t do anything specific to reduce the stock cr. IIRC we went .060 over which I think results in slightly less static cr if the chamber cc stayed the same. Do I have that right? Still, if it is something I can do easily, I will check for excessive crankcase pressure.

Had to chuckle when you mentioned the cast aluminum valve covers. You know I’m kinda anal about originality but I actually like the M/T cast covers or really old school Offy cast covers I believe exist and I have thought about them from time to time. I think the chrome Factory covers look cool too though so always come back to them. 😁 Just wish Pontiac had used more aluminum, the engine is just so heavy.

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Old 06-26-2020, 10:02 PM
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Boring the block for +.060” oversize pistons will increase the compression ratio. You’re now compressing a greater cylinder volume into the same size combustion chamber, thereby raising the compression ratio.

If the engine was 10.75:1 to begin with it will now be around 10.9:1. The factory rating was optimistic in most every instance, so you’re more likely somewhere around 10.25:1 in actuality.

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Old 06-27-2020, 09:31 AM
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This one uses a balloon, attached to the dipstick tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snepo7rdhsc

This one uses a home made manometer from clear plastic tubing attached to a piece of cardboard so it can be measured, also attached to dipstick tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-ZSnesa-to

You need to measure the difference between idle, and 2000 RPM. Air filter should be clean, or removed.

Cheap and easy ways to tell if you have good ring seal.

You can do compression check, or a leakdown test too, but either of these tests will point you in the right direction for excessive crankcase pressure.

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  #28  
Old 06-27-2020, 09:50 AM
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Brad, I’ll look into it.

b-man, I had a 50-50 shot! Thx for the correction.

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Old 06-27-2020, 12:27 PM
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Getting back to the oil for a moment --

I wonder if synthetic oil is harder to control from leaking. An engine builder I know said flat-out that synthetic oil in his experience was harder to contain around the rear main seal and "one way or the other it will find it's way to leak somewhere".

I never tried synthetic oil in a vintage engine because I believed they weren't designed around better tolerances and roller everything like a modern engine is.

I'm not that brave in experimenting with my 389

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Old 06-27-2020, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYGTO View Post
Getting back to the oil for a moment --

I wonder if synthetic oil is harder to control from leaking. An engine builder I know said flat-out that synthetic oil in his experience was harder to contain around the rear main seal and "one way or the other it will find it's way to leak somewhere".

I never tried synthetic oil in a vintage engine because I believed they weren't designed around better tolerances and roller everything like a modern engine is.

I'm not that brave in experimenting with my 389
It will say (or at least used to) on most bottles that if you have a weep with conventional oil you will have a leak with full synthetic.

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Old 06-27-2020, 01:12 PM
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That makes sense, if you have a leak with conventional oil a thinner fluid will leak as well. My engine builder said you'll have a harder time containing synthetic over conventional. He's building engines for over 40 years so I trust his judgement. Maybe other builders have different experiences.

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Old 06-27-2020, 03:33 PM
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I'm actually surprised nobody questioned my choice of synthetic oil earlier. Lots of opinions surrounding synthetics. Mobil 1 has been around since the '70s. If they ever cautioned about causing leaks on the label I'm not aware, never read the label til today. Nothing on the Mobil 1 label about leaks now. Some opinions will claim that synthetics have a smaller chain molecule that will escape thru a seal or gasket more easily, Mobil 1 certainly doesn't believe it causes leaks though they do offer High Mileage versions that have additives intended to help condition old, worn seals and help reduce leaks and also to help prevent oil burning. Haven't used that version myself.

I use synthetic because I believe it is a superior oil. I've been using it for about 20 years now in all my vehicles. During that time, I started using synthetic in a few used vehicles I purchased and never had leaks.

'04 GP GTP supercharged 3.8L has always gotten synthetic since new, 150K miles, not a drop of leakage. '12 Honda Civic 1.8L with 150K miles same story. Only conventional oil either car has had was the factory fill. First several years I changed the GP at 4-5K. But then realized I was throwing away perfectly good oil. I used to change the Honda at about 9K miles when the Maintenance Minder computer said it was due. But soon realized that was also wasteful (the computer has no idea what kind of oil I'm using). With the Ultra filters I now go many more miles and change it no more than annually. I always check the oil level before changing it to watch for any usage. I've never had to add oil between changes. The GP usage has dropped since I retired but the Honda currently has 13K miles since last change and isn't due for a change until end of Nov. By then it should have about 20-22K. And I expect the stick will still read full just as it does today (yes, I just checked it). I keep a record of every change so have the evidence.

Just to be clear, my engine builder initially filled the engine after rebuild with Valvoline 20W-50 VR1 Conventional Racing Oil. He also put in a pint of Lucas Engine Break-In Additive, I assume for added zinc. And the Wix 51258 filter. Those were his choices. He only builds Pontiac engines, races a pretty spectacular Pontiac that is Pontiac powered (aftermarket block and heads), has built dozens and dozens of Pontiac engines, been doing it for decades also. He went with conventional on mine. So this is the first time the GTO will see synthetic. The leaks so far are on conventional. The leaking that I experienced after the change are not new, the stains and puddle of oil in my drip pan were occurring while I drove it last summer and while it sat over the winter. The only thing new is I've decided to track the leaking down and fix it.

Everybody can decide for themselves but my opinion is that my cars should get synthetic. They are too valuable to me for me to use a lesser oil.

So I don't consider my oil choice as an experiment. The Ultra Filter is an experiment. But I did my homework and was confident it would fit. Since the gasket dimension was a tad different as I outlined in an earlier post in this thread, the only question was whether the gasket would leak.

I will keep an eye on it once I resolve the valve cover leak but after a few minutes run time, I am very happy to see no leakage from the filter.

I want to use it because the Ultra is a superior filter by construction and media vs. the filters that are specified as available for our engines. As I mentioned earlier, the whole idea of the Ultra (same is true for the Wix XP line) is to be compatible with the extended oil change intervals that are now commonplace with new cars operating from the factory on full synthetic oil. These filters are designed and built to last longer.

Since neither Fram nor Wix offers their best filters for our 389 application, I did my own homework to see if I could make an Ultra work.

Oil choice aside, why wouldn't you want to install a better built filter on your 389? I am more concerned that a lesser filter would fail and ruin my engine.

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Old 06-28-2020, 09:21 AM
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John

I understand most of your logic. I do firmly believe that Ultra and XP lines are superior with their construction and media for use with synthetic oils with extended intervals. I also use Mobil 1 in my GTO (15W50 - 1200/1300 ZDDP) and Camaro (0W40 1000/1100 ZDDP).

But are you planning to run your 389 for 10 - 15,000 miles without changing the oil and filter? As I change oil and filter every year, I'm totally comfortable that these filters won't suffer the issues inherent to the extended intervals.

If your plans are to change oil every 5 or more years (assuming something like 2,000 miles per year), then the concern over the filter makes sense to me.

I first started using Mobil 1 on my first brand new car - a 1976 Pontiac Ventura, so I've got a little experience with the product.

In 1979, after writing the insurance for my local Mobil oil jobber, he turned me on to using the commercial version - Delvac 1 - which I could buy directly from him in gallon jugs for about half the price. My 1979 Pontiac Grand Lemans 301 V8 made it 211,000 miles (before I sold it) on Delvac 1 with ACD oil filters and oil changes at 15,000 miles and filter changes at 7500 miles. Engine internals were never touched.

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Old 06-28-2020, 12:18 PM
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John, I wouldn't even consider the OEM style full flow filter if I wanted clean oil, and extended oil changes. I think you know my preference is a by pass oil filter if you're serious about engine protection, and keeping the oil clean.

An article from Blackstone labs about oil filtration with a by pass system over a full flow filter, and their findings on why removing the fine material that a OEM style filter physically can't remove, works to keep the oil, and engine cleaner, reducing wear:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration/

A by pass system is head and shoulders over a full flow system, and just from the design always will come out on top because there is no compromise in the design. It's design is to filter out the minute particles that are small enough to get in tight clearances in an engine, and do damage. In your case of liking the car to appear as close to showroom as possible, a by pass filter would have to be hidden to keep that appearance.

Although, back in the day plenty of early GTOs had the second day modifications of Frantz oil filters added to them. It however is your car, and your choice.

One of my biggest regrets, is having the local speed shop give me a demo on the Frantz filter, and then rejecting it over the OEM filters back in the early 70s. I was a teenager at the time, and I of course knew everything............LOL. I could have been saving money and increasing engine longevity for decades over the OEM filters. They were only $30 at that time...........

One other point that was discussed in this thread, was leaks with synthetic oil. I've been using Pennzoil synthetics since they first introduced them in the mid, to late 70s. PZL was the first synthetic I ever used, and I have found that if the engine doesn't leak, introducing synthetics usually has no effect on starting new leaks. If you do have a leak it will become more pronounced by using synthetics. No scientific evidence, just my own experiences with synthetics having used them for close to 40 years.

BTW, I have M/T covers on most of my own cars, my personal preference. I do have a set of full finned ones that I can't recall whose name is stamped on them underneath, that I may use at some point.

I never was a stickler for stock appearances, and always took function over form in everything I owned over the years.

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  #35  
Old 06-28-2020, 12:23 PM
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On an unrelated note, shouldn't there be a washer on the control arm bolt?


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  #36  
Old 06-28-2020, 03:05 PM
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ZeGermanHam, I appreciate the heads up. But no washer according to the '64-'66 Front Suspension Illustration in the '66 Master Parts Catalog. I believe same illustration is in the '64 Shop Manual but didn't look. That's a pretty stout bracket that is part of the frame that the nut (and bolt head on other side) bears on. Unless you were thinking a lock washer, I can't imagine adding a washer under the nut would accomplish much unless the hole is way oversized. Anyway, no harm in pointing possible assembly errors out, I for one appreciate it.

Saw at the Street forum a guy was using the Wix 51522XP on his 455. His issue was header clearance. So looks like I'm not the first to use this size filter on a Pontiac V8.

Champ, I'm taking it one step at a time. Haven't begun to think what my change interval should be.

This was the first change. Last summer, the engine was being broken in. I didn't want to drive it this year until I changed it. I knew it was leaking last summer but kinda treated it like I hoped it would go away and buried my head in the sand. Had to add a quart at some point and only put 500 miles on it total. As I mentioned, I thought it was the rear main and spent the winter wondering if it could be fixed cause I really hate oil leaks and this one is making a mess of the car. I'm a bit relieved to think it is actually from the valve cover. I'm now hoping that once that is fixed, any rear main leak will be insignificant (better would be non-existent).

You are correct, my insurance allows me 3000 miles annually, I'll be hard pressed to do that many unless I take it to a remote event. Main thing stopping me from doing that is fear of breaking down hundreds of miles from home. When I was a teen, never worried about my '64 GTO convertible breaking down. And it did because it was old and worn out. I once removed and reinstalled the driveshaft on the shoulder of I-94 in Indiana after the rear u-joint broke. I was 1 hr into a 15 hr drive back to NJ from college circa 1975. Dropped off the driveshaft at a service plaza then spent the night in the car. That set my trip back about 16 hrs. I could still make a repair like that today but I'm a little less stupid these days.

So unless I plan to NOT change the oil for years, it certainly seems like overkill. I won't deny that. I know filters can fail though I've never experienced that. But having read about some filters failing, I figure for a couple bucks extra I can afford a better one. And the better media also counts IMO.

If anybody wants to comment about low mile oil change intervals going multi-year, I'm interested in hearing them.

Brad, I actually planned on mentioning bypass filtration in this post, then saw yours. I am already pretty well versed thanks to your past posts. I like the concept. Back when I was trying to maintain 5 daily drivers at home and changing oil at 4-5k, it seemed like I was doing an oil change every month. Way more time spent than I cared for. These days with much fewer changes to do, it usually feels a lot more rewarding. The GTO is only a different story cause of the leak(s).

One day I may get the 455 for the TA done. I may go a lot less stock with it and would consider bypass filtration for it. I understand the better filtration but fewer changes, easier changes are the main attractions for me. If you have any pix of an installation in your departed '73 TA, I'd like to see them.

Last comment, my builder looked at the pix and agreed, bad leaks from both covers. He suggests the fiber gaskets from Butler Performance installed as previously described except he likes the Right Stuff to glue them to the covers.

Any preferences for valve cover gaskets? I suspect any gasket would work if the covers were straight. My covers were rechromed originals, I wonder if the chrome job bowed them.

  #37  
Old 06-28-2020, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V. View Post
ZeGermanHam, I appreciate the heads up. But no washer according to the '64-'66 Front Suspension Illustration in the '66 Master Parts Catalog. I believe same illustration is in the '64 Shop Manual but didn't look. That's a pretty stout bracket that is part of the frame that the nut (and bolt head on other side) bears on. Unless you were thinking a lock washer, I can't imagine adding a washer under the nut would accomplish much unless the hole is way oversized. Anyway, no harm in pointing possible assembly errors out, I for one appreciate it.
Yep, no worries. Wasn't trying to bust your chops. I couldn't remember whether mine had washers there when I took everything apart, and I assumed that it might be the case because my aftermarket UMI suspension kit included them. Figured the factory would've, too.

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