[grandville455]

hey aero were neighbors where in eau claire?maybe i can help you out?

[aerosmyth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ELK67GTO:
areosmyth,
I had a flowcooler,before buying the Napa 58-299

ELK67GTO, thanks for the comparitive comments. This leads me to the conclusion I shall remove my homebrew pump and order the 'high-vane' pump and clearance it closely (~.060")to the divider plate. Just to be sure, the NAPA 58-299 is an 8 bolt cast impellor??

A side note: I picked up an 11 bolt reman for the
455 Im building and it has the pontiac casting
numbers, I 18 7 DC and the GM impellor casting
number.....so I'll assume I have a good one if
I get the gap closed down to the single plate.

Malky, your response was appreciated and I forgot to state that without the single gasket for the 8
bolt pump the button heads scraped on the plate.

Grandville455, watching your posts too. Lets talk
shop at a BK cruz night Thurs 10th or by phone.

aerosmyth

[JSchmitz]

I just found an NOS pump at a Buick dealer. This is for a '70 GTO 455. That's what I told them to look up. Part #12300305. They sold it to me wholesale (supposedly) to get rid of it. $61.80. I wiil post pictures when I get it.

[Chad1969]

I have a 69 GTO with a '74 400ci engine. I got it put back together about 8 months ago with the engine rebuilt to stock. It has a regular four core radiator with stock fan and shroud. The water pump will not move any fluid. Replaced the water pump with no luck. Finally found out there is supposed to be a divider plate in there that I don't have. It disappeared somewhere between my house, the machine shop, and a few months of sitting. This is my first project car\rebuild so I had no idea it was supposed to be there. I have found a divider and housing for 67-68 Pontiac V8's but can't find one for my specific engine. Will the 67-68 work. Any hints or suggestions on finding one for my engine. Thanks! Chad

[mc67gtoconv]

areosmyth,
The Napa pump is an 8 bolt cast but,bring a ruler to make sure you are getting the high vane type because I have read in this thread that the companies that rebuild these pumps may use different height impellors or they may be pressed on at different levels.
I would not buy one unless you could check it out first.
The Napa high vane pump I found had 3/4 inch high impellor vanes.
As far as the flowcooler that I had it appeared to be only 1/2 inch vanes in height.
Maybe I was lucky to get the high vane one,others have bought many pumps and not been so lucky.
If you read this entire thread,the conclusion is that for an 8 bolt pump the 3/4 inch high vane type cast impellor is more efficient than the 1/2 type provided that the gap between the internal housing and the vanes is .060 or less.
It also appears that as the gap decreases the efficiency of the pump increases.
Good luck

[george kujanski]

Chad, the 67-68 is a 8 bolt pump whereas the '74 is an 11 bolt; different. The later style like yours uses a single divider plate; it's available from a number of sources, including, I believe, our host, PY.

George

[convbird]

I have question on the measuring of the vein height. Are measurements being taken from the base of the impeller to the top of the vane, or from the base of the pump housing to the top of the vane(just to the side of the impellor). Reason being is I am wondering if the varing vane heights is just a result of how far the impellor is pressed on. I noticed in the photo on pg 16 that GR8ONE68 measured from the base of the pump houseing. If the impellor wasn't press on far, that would give a false measurement on the vane height. Sorry if this was brought up already, but in going through 22 pages of info you can miss things.

[mc67gtoconv]

68convbird,
I have 4 old pumps laying around and as far as the 8 bolt cast impellor is concerned I have found all 4 of my old pumps had 1/2 inch height on the vanes and the Napa 58-299 pump that I bought and installed had 3/4 inch height both measured the same exact way. The way I measured the height had nothing to do with how far the impellor was pressed on.

[PMDRACER]

GM sells the 11 bolt divider plates. Last time I went they were called "Pump Kit".
They also sell the 11 bolt timing covers, and the sleeves with the large rubber o-rings.

[aerosmyth]

This forum is very helpful. I ordered 5 NAPA
58-299 pumps to take my caliper, divider plates,
another -3130 timing cover and we'll see what fits. Waiting for response on measurement location but I think what is meant is actual
cast vane height in the impeller only.

Ya know...I smell a business opportunity if someone would find (or develop) the correct fit
impeller and a modern 8 bolt divider plate like
the 11 bolt that would be sealed to the outlets
(block inlet passages). I have to question if
the two plate system evenly distributes the split
flow correctly to each bank. And especially when
the impeller exit flow is not inline with the 1st
divider (closest to pump casting).

Also, I have pondered whether a radiator flow
diffuser or baffling would more uniformly
utilize the core rows and area. Does the hotest
coolant get all the way across the top tank to
the far tubes and at the proper resident time in tube to acheive maximum heat exchange? Should
the ranks of rows (front to back) receive coolant
at flow velocity or temps to max heat extraction, etc. Ah thermodynamics 101.

Lest we forget that adjustable fuel mixture carb
on aircraft engines run cooler with more fuel
so jetting can be tweaked richer also.

Tests are being planned for different distributor
set-ups to actually learn empiracaly what is best
advance curve with same initial(6 deg)and max(34)
mechanical settings and same 20 degree vacuum on
the manifold (not carb port). To do this I will
imbed and locate a half dozen calibrated thermocouples in coolant, radiator, on manifold
RT/LFT water passage and on block to see delta
across this engine on each run.

So; new pump, new HiFlow 180 T/S, then testing at
3-4 recurves with good thermocouples to see
'whasup'.

Where is the silver bullet?

aerosmyth

[george kujanski]

Good ideas, aero. We definitely need some hard data to see the effects of various mods. We know that some things work, some don't. Can't argue with the scientific method.

George

[GTO-HJR]

George,
I can't thank you enough for your experimentation and tips. I had to drive my GTO to work everyday 75 miles on the highway for a month while I was looking to replace dead daily driver. I'm running a 455 with RAIII cam, auto tranny and 3:91 gears. My car never ran hot in traffic but doing 65 - 75 MPH it would heat up to 210+. I eventually burnt 2 intake valves and had to park it for a while. Now I am getting her back on the road. Thanks to your, and other's posts I will hopefully save some money. I had planned on buying the Milodon aluminum high volume water pump for $80 which also meant I had to convert over to a newer timing cover since I used the one off of the original 400 motor. My 69 was built in 68 and still had the short water pump setup. Heads are off to machine shop in a week or two and I'll check my vane clearance ASAP. I can't wait to be able to cruise at highway speeds again.
Thanks again George and all else who's posted on this topic.
Eric

[george kujanski]

Eric, welcome to the forums. I hope the simple stuff works out for you; Follow what OLDGOAT67 did with the tall vane impeller and tighten up the clearance and you can't get the pump assy any better (unless some novel redesign is done).
He has the same pump style.

Did you read all 22 pages?

George

[GTO-HJR]

No, I have to admit that I didn't. I read the first 10 or so though and had to tell you thanks. I can't wait to try this. I also learned that its not the timing cover I have to change but the pulley if I want to go to the long water pump but thanks to you I shouldn't have to do that. I just can't wait to get my goat back on the road. Its been dormat for over 2 years now. I thought I had a bad wrist pin as many others that listened to it thought as well. Turns out all 3 torque converter bolts were loose. I drive her very hard but thats what I built her for. 8-)
Eric (Luv My Goat}

[jafuzz1]

I see many replies about long and short pumps...I didn't know they made different length snouts. Is this only for the 11 bolt pumps, or is it true for the 8 bolt as well? Must be for Firebird? Also, for the '66 GTO's w/ A/C, was the waterpump pulley a smaller diameter? Maybe I can use a smaller pulley to pump more at lower speeds.

[george kujanski]

Eric: just curious whether someone new to this thread would take the time to read all 22 pages. Reads like a novel, hey, maybe we can sell the rights to Hollywood, starring Vin Diesel as the guy with a '67 that runs too hot, Dennis Hopper as a muscle car mechanic just released from prison.......Ashley Judd and Morgan Freeman as two investigators probing Big Aluminum Radiator Companies trying to sell their wares to unsuspecting Pontiac hobbyists....
And what about Burt Reynolds?
Sorry, got off on a tangent.

George

[convbird]

Can anyone tell me if a plugged heater core would contribute to heating problems? I could just bypass it and see, but I was wondering what the consensus was before I did it.

[PMDRACER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ya know...I smell a business opportunity if someone would find (or develop) the correct fit impeller and a modern 8 bolt divider plate like the 11 bolt that would be sealed to the outlets (block inlet passages). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said it in the first pages of this thread that I think it would be possible to modify an 8-bolt timing cover to accept a second sleeve and water passage, then modifying the divider plate to take advantage of it would be really simple. The hardest part would be machining the water pump a little to direct flow to that side, and that's a piece of cake.

[george kujanski]

Hey, Grandville: Any idea why, as you say, you had the stamped impeller flavor, with a lot of clearance, in your car, and never overheated? Any explanations for that? Whatever worked for you will probably work for the members who did the pump improvements and still have issues.

PMDracer had some success with a stamped impeller also, as I recall.

You guys are the point men on this one!

George

[GTO-HJR]

George,
Let me know when you sell your movie to hollywood. I just hope that there will be no Pontiac destruction in it. I almost cried when I saw that Judge in The Last Ride go off the cliff even though I talked myself into beleiving that they didn't really do that.
I'm so excited about this forum. I can't understand why I haven't joined up until now. Can't wait on getting my car back on the road. I've missed her so bad. Suspension and drivetrain are all new and she drives so nice. When deceiding what to buy to restore and modify i was originally planning on an older Gen 2 TA. I had an 81 WS6 turbo TA and loved the way that car handled the curves. I ended up choosing a GTO instead because I like the coil spring rear suspension and also liked the fact that they have bigger back seats and trunks then firebirds. When rebuilding the suspension I went with HO-Enterprises Strong Arm A body kit. Man oh man. I would highly recomend that to anyone and everyone. My GTO handles every bit as good as the WS6 TA I had and I've still got 14" skinny tires on it. With 15x8 rallies and sticky meats it will surpass the WS6 factory handling by far. Well I'm off topic but I wanted to share my experience with you.
Take Care,

Eric