#61  
Old 06-16-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
I have no dog in this fight but a few observations. The Norwalk event is firmly established and has lots of sponsor support, a single dedicated promoter who began in the Pontiac hay day and the event is at one of the best located and best tracks in the country. It can probably survive on cruise control for another 10-15 years with minor tweaks. A new event like this needs to appeal to a wide audience just to pay the bills, period. Not enough traditional Pontiac racers or show cars to make this event viable unless looking for a tax write off of some kind. From a personal standpoint as a racer, I really like running against other brand cars, whether it be corporate power or other brands. I am a die hard traditional Pontiac engine guy, but I am not going to back down from any other brand. Lets really show them what WE can do with our Pontiac power. We only run Norwalk each year as a single brand event. Other than that, we race all comers. We even ran the Grocery Getter at a NOPI event. That was a drag race for rice grinders!! Had a chance to show those idiots what they were missing. I wish the Pontiac Nationals well, but with the current set of rules, it will be an uphill battle.
Bingo!
I'd rather sit in the staging lanes surrounded by a bunch of other brands and have people be amazed I still have a "Pontiac" engine in it and ask all kinds of questions instead of just being another Pontiac in an all Pontiac race.

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Last edited by Rob B; 06-16-2015 at 11:44 AM.
  #62  
Old 06-16-2015, 11:29 AM
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Mike forgot to mention my vote for the most bizarre and fun race we ever did...Grocery Getter vs. jet car at the World Series.

Eric

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  #63  
Old 06-16-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Elarson View Post
Mike forgot to mention my vote for the most bizarre and fun race we ever did...Grocery Getter vs. jet car at the World Series.

Eric

HEY..........I ran an Alky funny car at Norwalk!


GTO George

  #64  
Old 06-16-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I don't mean to sound harsh and this will probably be taken the wrong way, but....

Because I feel, (and I think most other car people do) that it's more about the comradery and not so much what a payout might be. I suspect it's always been that way which is why big events with a mix of show and race like the Tri-Power Nats still draw a big crowd. I'm just glad that there are still people putting on such events.

I go, and both race and show, and don't care if I win anything at all. I simply enjoy a chance to get the car out, have some fun on the track, enjoy a weekend among friends, and see other cars. When it starts to become a subject of "how much can I win" then I think the fun is over for me and I've lost the real reason I'm in the hobby.

If I were worried about payouts I'd attend NHRA, NMCA (which has heads up racing Wreckmastr), IHRA events, not an event where most of the focus seems to be surrounding the classic car world.

Personally I hope it's a success and that there will be more to follow. I enjoy the show/race mixed events and believe all shows should be at the dragstrip to add some variety. Lawn chair nationals are a bit boring.
my sentiments exactly!!!

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  #65  
Old 06-16-2015, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob B View Post
Kil Kare is an awesome track, they have done an excellent job with the new surface but they've turned the pit area into a road course and the now the staging lanes have got to be the dumbest set up I've ever seen. You can't watch any of the cars go down the track while waiting for time runs or eliminations nor see the scoreboards. If they can get their track management issues resolved this year, we'll go up more often than we have in the last couple of years. Love their Outlaw and index races once a month.
guy that bought it was a lottery winner...so I imagine it's a learning curve and they have seemed willing to work with the people on a few issues so far. He also is building round track facilities and he bought the local Harley Dealership so he has several irons in the fire....but pouring 1600 feet of concrete was definately getting off on the right foot!

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  #66  
Old 06-17-2015, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer View Post
And here's my comment.
If $600 is too much for a racing budget, and it's too hot, stay out of the kitchen.
If we're bragging ? I finished 2nd in 2011, and got beat by a traditional Pontiac engine.
Last year at Gateway, they had there "super chebby weekend".
Pontiac's with Pontiac engines were NOT invited.
Nor did I wine about it !
Responses to your comments

I have been truly blessed and can spend as much as I want during a year’s time on racing budget. I can assure you the money I did not spend last weekend will be spent at a racetrack somewhere this year.

Yes I remember your car at that event. As I recall since we all are racing a clock from one end of the track to the other you did not get beat by a traditional Pontiac engine. You got beat by the same good driver as I did. He took care of me at the tree and I ran within one hundred of my number. Where did he take care of you at? When we exchanged post in the thread about that Pontiac event you and others were very nice to talk with. Your statement back then was “you were the number 1 loser”. As I recall your GTO ran well and we even lined up against each other one time. I remember thinking while going down the track and looking over into my REARVIEW mirror that black goat is running good. Of course you were still behind me at the finish line. Now that I know how you feel that must have hurt seeing that Pontiac with a 346 CI LS powered engine in it collect it’s time slip at the ticket booth before you. As Walter Brennan use to say “No Bragg just Fact”

Just like you I have no interest in going to a as you put it a "super chebby weekend" now I do enjoy going to a Pontiac event to try and help anyone that is promoting an event that helps the brand of vehicle I enjoy spending time working on and driving on nice weekends.

No crying here just seeing the same old thinking that probably ended the manufacturing of the brand of cars I like.

As stated before let's agree to disagree and go on about our business.

N2

  #67  
Old 06-17-2015, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE View Post
DAMN...........where do I even start?
My engine will fit a 389 crankshaft, camshaft & you can bolt on a set of 389 heads on it............yea I'm thinking its a traditional Pontiac engine!
My rods they are GRPs.......they are not a CHEVY rods.
My new 1974 GTO ran 16.1 from the factory, I still have my original bill of sales!
My heads......KRE High Ports will bolt on to a 389- 455 block.
I'm not thrashing late model pontiacs just the JUNK Chevy engines that came in them!
As for my NOVA body style.........it's no different then a firebird/camaro, Grand Prix/Monte Carlo or a GTO/chevelle body style........get the picture!!


GTO George
Yes you are thrashing late model Pontiacs!

Yes I get the picture. You race a car that most everyone thinks is a NOVA not a GTO and it does not have one single 40+ year old traditional Pontiac produced engine part left in the engine bay!!!

Proceed

N2

  #68  
Old 06-17-2015, 08:32 AM
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Yes you are thrashing late model Pontiacs!

Yes I get the picture. You race a car that most everyone thinks is a NOVA not a GTO and it does not have one single 40+ year old traditional Pontiac produced engine part left in the engine bay!!!

Proceed

N2

When you start making HP..........you'll start replacing your factory parts! LOL!
Just kidding!
Have a nice day
Oh by the way I'm sure some track are have a Super Chevy race!

GTO George


Last edited by GTOGEORGE; 06-17-2015 at 08:40 AM.
  #69  
Old 06-17-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob B View Post
How many cars were there?????


Rather you like it or not, if the "Pontiac" hobby is to live on and survive to what we know it to be today, you better except, acknowledge, the late model Pontiacs. look around you, who do you see in the hobby right now?? Older guys getting ready to retire some already retired (Some who retired when their 49 ) and then you drop down to the guys like me in their mid-late 40's who were around these cars when they were still obtainable back in the 80's and 90's when we were in high school. Do you see the 20-30 something guys really interested in these cars??? There are some but nothing like it was when we were that age. These guys mainly only know the LS platform or whatever V6 that's their Gran Prix, Grand Am, Bonneville came with. You also have the guys who are considerably older who are selling off their cars or people who inherit them thru some ones estate.
This hobby needs the younger generations who grew up with the later model cars and who gives a rats ass if it not a true "Pontiac" powerplant or not? These cars are branded Pontiac, they have an engine between their wheels that "Pontiac" engineers and bean counters felt should be there. So what's the big deal? Everyone Bitched when Pontiac went away. Why would you have cared since none of them had an original "Pontiac" style motor in them? This could be and has been debated until the cows come home!

You need the younger generation with their late model cars in the hobby, period. That's the best way to expose a generation who have know idea, nor probably care, what a "real Pontiac" is. Only when you get those people in can they see first hand how cool these old cars are and the misconceptions they may have heard about the old Pontiac motors on how they can't be fast, affordable to build, etc etc are thrown out the window. Once this happens, these are the guys who will then hopefully carry on with the hobby by purchasing these older cars from the guys who are retiring, dying, or getting out of the hobby. And if you really think about it, the same principle holds true with the original SBC/BBC's and the new generation LS platforms.
An event that was promoted for almost a year that pulled 20 cars, in my mind, is a total flop. If I was a sponsor that catered not just to Pontiac specific but to other brands also, and had skin in that game, I'd be pissed.
That email N2 mentioned previously went out to someone I knew that was planning on coming. Because of that email, it not only stopped her from attending and racing, it also kept about 5 other guys from bringing their traditional and late model cars to the event.

I fully agree with this post, if your going to grow a Pontiac event you have to allow all Pontiacs to race. At Norwalk for years I have watched the LS corporate/or SBC powered cars run the Stratostreak cars and have always pulled for the Stratostreak to win. Sometimes they win, and sometimes they don't. If they get beaten by the corporate engine in a late model car, then they need to work a little harder next time.

If the purist never runs against a corporate engine, how do they know if they have the power to beat one? Maybe they need to step up their program a bit more.

I own both type of Pontiacs with both type of engines. My past race cars were Stratostreak powered, and I have a variety of street cars with both powerplants. Everything in my driveway except for my IH wrecker and my Shoveorleaveit 4X4 dually are Pontiacs (even though its a chevy, it has a corporate Detroit Diesel 6.5 turbo diesel).

I don't own a Pontiac classic and drive a Honda, Toyota, etc. for my daily driver. Lots of the purists do not drive a Pontiac for a daily driver. So you own a Pontiac race car/or show car, and your daily driver is? I don't know about anyone reading this, but if your daily driver is something else beside a Pontiac isn't that being kind of contradictory? If I'm hearing this correctly from the purist, Pontiac quit making car in 1981 and so you sold out to (insert brand here) for your daily driver?

I guess maybe some here have a short memory, but the owners of the Tri Power Nationals tried another venue for a few years (Cordova) to have 2 major Pontiac events during the same year. It was well sponsored and well advertised, however it still fell on it's face and was discontinued after a few years.

Pete and Andy Woodruff as well as Steve Ames fully know how to produce a great Pontiac show/race. I doubt there are any people more qualified at doing such an undertaking in the US. From the beginning they knew that they needed as many participants as possible to make a success out of their show and didn't limit corporate powered cars from their race or show. If they did the event known as Norwalk would not exist as it now does, it would be a little rinky dink show with nothing but pre 1981 cars and I doubt it would be half of what it now is.

When they run the Nostalgia cars they even invite chevies, fords and mopars to run against the Pontiacs.
No other Pontiac show does that, so why complain about corporate powered Pontiacs showing up?

All Pontiac show/race promoters aspire to have another Norwalk, and many of them shoot themselves in the foot right from the beginning by limiting their particpants to pre 81 cars. Even the Woodruffs and Steve Ames couldn't make another show like Norwalk. If you cut out participants from 1982-2010 you really cut your odds for success. Take the formula that already works and include the post 82 cars, because reinventing the wheel isn't going to work.

There are a lot of people that own post 82 Pontiacs that consider themselves Pontiac people and take lots of pride in their rides, why cut them out and limit your attendance? If a Pontiac came from the factory with a corporate engine let them in, their not going to change any of the purists minds and have the racers switching to corporate power.

FWIW, GM and Pontiac didn't start swapping powerplants in 1981, it was going on long before many here were born. GMC has done it, Pontiac has done it, Chevy has done it, as well as Buick and Olds. It goes back into the 50s, maybe further, and runs until GM formed their Powertrain division in the mid 90s. Now all powertrains are GM branded and are true corporate engines, there is no Chevy, Buick, Cadillac or GMC, engines, they all come from GM powertrain division. Even the chevy purists have a problem with no BB or SBC engines in the newer cars/trucks.

That's correct LS engines are not chevy engines, they are GM Powertrain designed and built. Even the chevy purists know that an LS engine isn't a chevy engine, however some here feel they are. They probably didn't switch to a Japanese car or a ford or mopar for their D/D though.

When I raced dirt track car I felt wonderful beating the other brands that were supposedly superior to a Pontiac Stratostreak engine. We've all heard how Pontiacs are rod chuckers and nothing more than good boat anchors. These guys are the ones that need shut up by a sound trouncing.

Big Chief just in last weeks episode beat the hottest chevy (Murder Nova) on Street Outlaws with a Pontiac with less displacement. Justin gets real satisfaction beating the chevys with his Pontiac. You don't hear him crying when he got beaten twice by the guy from Louisiana, he just said he's got more work to do to prove he is king of the street racers, with a junk Pontiac Stratostreak engine..................................

No whining, make your car quicker. There is no need to whine and complain, if you beat the guy in the other lane!!! The victory says it all...............

When the green flag drops, the bullsh!t stops.

I'm done, proceed with the floggings until morale improves........

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  #70  
Old 06-17-2015, 10:02 AM
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Best ET to date, 10.16 @ 131 in my other Black GTO. Not that the first one to the ticket booth wins anything.

Enough about us. Let's shake hands & go racin.

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Last edited by Old Goat Racer; 06-17-2015 at 10:48 AM.
  #71  
Old 06-17-2015, 10:52 AM
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Not that the first one to the ticket booth wins anything.


Quote:
Pete and Andy Woodruff as well as Steve Ames fully know how to produce a great Pontiac show/race. I doubt there are any people more qualified at doing such an undertaking in the US. From the beginning they knew that they needed as many participants as possible to make a success out of their show and didn't limit corporate powered cars from their race or show. If they did the event known as Norwalk would not exist as it now does, it would be a little rinky dink show with nothing but pre 1981 cars and I doubt it would be half of what it now is.
I thought originally it was for the 'up to 81' Pontiacs.
(like Steve Barcak's Pontiac Heaven event)


I look at it as any day of the week I am racing the 'other' brands.
I am die hard Pontiac, bleed Pontiac, and race Pontiac.

The only reason I go to the 'Pontiac' events is because there is only Pontiacs there.
And the races I run I want it to be Pontiac powered (not corporate).
(as I wouldn't expect Super Chevy to cater to other brands)
They usually have classes for the other Pontiacs to race, just not in the Pontiac engine classes.
(like Super Pro at Norwalk)

I have no problem with N2RacingV8's racing his Pontiac, just expect a Pontiac event to be mainly for the early Pontiac engine.
If he likes racing as he said, no problem, there is always a track running somewhere.

This being a Pontiac event and put on by Pontiac people, they can set there rules up as they see fit.



Now possibly if they decide they need more money, they can expand to a BOP event like Zeek probably did because they couldn't pull the people.
(and still couldn't get a turn-out?)



N2RacingV8's, are you racing where George is at this week?
There you can race all you want and have a chance to win a lot more money.
(and have some Pontiacs there)


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  #72  
Old 06-17-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post





I look at it as any day of the week I am racing the 'other' brands.
I am die hard Pontiac, bleed Pontiac, and race Pontiac.

The only reason I go to the 'Pontiac' events is because there is only Pontiacs there.
And the races I run I want it to be Pontiac powered (not corporate).
(as I wouldn't expect Super Chevy to cater to other brands)
They usually have classes for the other Pontiacs to race, just not in the Pontiac engine classes.
(like Super Pro at Norwalk)


Now possibly if they decide they need more money, they can expand to a BOP event like Zeek probably did because they couldn't pull the people.
(and still couldn't get a turn-out?)


When was the last time you physically raced a car down any given track?
Did you ever go to any of the Pontiac/PY in the parks events Jim put on years back or the more recent one he put on at Maple Grove a few years back in conjunction with the PY open house Event???? When was the last time you went to ANY Pontiac event??
All of those events pulled a helluva lot more cars than just 20. And the Maple Grove event had minimal advertising and was still a bigger success than the Pontiac US Nationals. There was never a BOP event done by Jim, however that might have been the smart thing to do this past weekend to draw the cars, racers, and spectators.
Your throwing out all this BS fodder about how these shows should be run, what should be allowed, etc but you don't participate in any of them past your monitor and keyboard. How can you have a "pulse" on the state of the hobby if you never participate in the events??
I'll at least give George some credit and respect because he try's to attend these events, duck tape and all.

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  #73  
Old 06-17-2015, 01:55 PM
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Duct tape...........you're killing me!

I made it to Maple Grove also made it to Cordova, Kil Kare, IRP, & Route 66 drag Strips for Pontiac Races.



GTO George


Last edited by GTOGEORGE; 06-17-2015 at 02:15 PM.
  #74  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:20 PM
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When was the last time you physically raced a car down any given track?
2011.

I raced at Norwalk, Cordova, Rt 66, Sikeston, Butler's, Dallas and other Pontiac events.
Never made it to the north east coast events, mainly they weren't all Pontiac or couldn't get time off to go.

I raced every week at our local track since 1986 when it opened back up.
Raced at Indy, Rt 66, Gateway and other tracks when they had bigger races or 'Nostalgia' type of races.

How about you?
How long have you been racing?
Won anything?


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  #75  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob B View Post
When was the last time you physically raced a car down any given track?
Did you ever go to any of the Pontiac/PY in the parks events Jim put on years back or the more recent one he put on at Maple Grove a few years back in conjunction with the PY open house Event???? When was the last time you went to ANY Pontiac event??
I remember john at Nowalk (he put me out one year in the Q16). He has beento the Div. 3 Bracket Finals at Indy. He's a Damn GOOD Racer! Everyone retires from racing at one time or another........I'm even thinking about it in a couple of years. Now there's internet racers on these Pontiac web sites that really hardly ever raced and are telling racers what to do......I call them RECLINER QUARTERBACKS!! LOL!! John is not one of them........he raced a lot.



GTO George

  #76  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:42 PM
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My helmet expires in 2017. I probably won't buy a new 1

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  #77  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:51 PM
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Just an FYI, I didn't retire from racing, just retired from work.



But I have been living my life as I want, just more things to do right now.
Getting the dragster ready and possibly my 70 Formula.
(been 20 years since I had it out, since building the dragster)


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  #78  
Old 06-17-2015, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer View Post
My helmet expires in 2017. I probably won't buy a new 1
That's because your old.......
or drive a slower car!

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Last edited by Rob B; 06-17-2015 at 03:40 PM.
  #79  
Old 06-17-2015, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
2011.

I raced at Norwalk, Cordova, Rt 66, Sikeston, Butler's, Dallas and other Pontiac events.
Never made it to the north east coast events, mainly they weren't all Pontiac or couldn't get time off to go.

I raced every week at our local track since 1986 when it opened back up.
Raced at Indy, Rt 66, Gateway and other tracks when they had bigger races or 'Nostalgia' type of races.

How about you?
How long have you been racing?
Won anything?

I've been racing since I was a pup(31 yrs now) and will go race any place I can. Hell, I went to a Podunk outlaw track this past weekend just to try something different. Even though I'm playing around and working out some issues with the car, when its was game time, we still went rounds.
When I was younger, I ran points for some years in the late 80's early 90's and represented my track at the Division 3 finals every September I raced points. I made it to the semi's one year at the bracket finals and have gone rounds every time I was there. I quit racing points because of the BS and commitment that goes with doing that when I had my kids, but I still raced. There were also years that I was lucky to get out a couple of times but I still did. There were years my car was apart so I'd either run my truck, another daily driver, or more recently, steal the old lady's car when she wasn't looking, but I still got out and raced. I know the trends and what's going on, do you??? Really???
I've had my fair share of wins, more than I care to think about Bridesmaids outings, and can go some rounds with the best of them. But I also don't bring up and live in my "glory days" of racing, and I think (outside of right now) I'm pretty modest of my racing "career" to this point.
I would prefer to go to a track or a race where there actually is a car count and some competition compared to something that just occurred this past weekend, that's no fun in my eyes.
I understand your point of some of the other internet racer your referring to but I'm sorry, you have no room to talk.
When was the last time you won anything?

__________________
74 GTO Bracket/Street car and another 74 for the wifey to race with!
70 GTO 400, 4 spd, #'s matching and a little to nice for me to own.
Friendship is like peeing your pants..everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth!

Last edited by Rob B; 06-17-2015 at 03:45 PM.
  #80  
Old 06-17-2015, 04:57 PM
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Sirrotica Sirrotica is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Catawba Ohio
Posts: 7,190
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Quote:
My helmet expires in 2017. I probably won't buy a new 1
Quote:
But I have been living my life as I want, just more things to do right now.
Getting the dragster ready and possibly my 70 Formula.
(been 20 years since I had it out, since building the dragster)
Quote:
Everyone retires from racing at one time or another........I'm even thinking about it in a couple of years.
Unknowingly, you 3 just gave substance to what Rob B has been saying. Without getting younger people in to Pontiac racing and shows, who will carry the flag. All 3 of you said it yourselves that your probably getting out of racing sooner than later. Who will replace you 3 guys in the future? Not everyone is going to be an Arnie Beswick running a 7 second car well into their 80s. There are a bunch more guys around retirement age that are not going to keep racing Pontiacs until they're in the grave. George, John and OGR are just 3 guys saying this in this thread, how many more close to their age are also saying some of the same things?

You need to look at the overall picture here, if this hobby is going to last more than another 10-15 years there are going to have to be younger people brought into the arena. That means all Pontiacs need to be welcome at these events, not just pre 81 cars.

Keep your head in the sand and you'll probably see one at a time these events will go by the wayside. Mismanagement killed the division, and mismanagement will also kill the hobby.

The writing is on the wall here, either read it and weep, or do something positive to help the hobby. Excluding more people and cars will do nothing to help the hobby sustain, or grow.

Carry on..........................

John, to answer your question, I've not been going to Norwalk since the very beginning. I started attending in the mid 90s, and at that time corporate powered cars were attending it. I'm not sure if originally it was only 1981 and before when it originated.

However if it was only pre 82 cars, the management had enough vision to know in the long run excluding post 81 cars was not in their best interest.

__________________
Brad Yost
1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

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