[Robert C.]

Please don't take this to the dark side.

You see these TV street racers claiming 700.C.I. with spread bores, stretch Hemi crankshafts, Hemi Rods, Cam lobes moved, custom cam chains. Billet Aluminum blocks with No Water Jackets and Billet Heads claiming is a Chevy. They can't bolt a stock cylinder head to it and start the motor on a bet.

Or is it a more of a experimental motor? And should be called just that.

Thoughts?

[70 bird]

Pontiac people seem to have self imposed bore spacing constraints.

[p4msi1]

If I had the money I would stretch a pontiac block, crank and tiger heads to 1000 ci. and still call it a Pontiac. It would probably be a tri-power with 3- 4 bbl carbs so it looks right.

Steve

[mgarblik]

Your question has been thrashed around on the board for years with no real consensus. Anybody can say and claim anything from a corporate Big Block being or not being a Pontiac to an LS engine being a corporate engine to a Chevy engine, the list is almost endless. Even the serious Pontiac racers have hard and fast rules they live by, but are all different. To me personally, if the engine is somehow recognizable as a Pontiac V-8, I accept it as such, but who am I? As far as what I am willing to race and personally claim as a Pontiac, my answer is different. My rules for a Pontiac engine are: 1. stock bore spacing. 2. 10 head bolts 3. a cylinder head of a general design engineered by Pontiac. That's why the Grocery Getter and Boss Bird engines look like they do. My rules. I have no problem with others with their CV-1's and warp canted valve heads, spread bore spacing and 18 head bolts. It's just not for me, not quite "genuine enough" for my taste.

[Travis Q]

Here's a question in response to your question:

If an enterprising person had the means to make a 'Pontiac' block that was, say, 4.840 bore spacing (factory BBC bore space), utilized a BBC crankshaft, used a BBC camshaft height (so a BBC timing chain could be used), but yet kept a Pontiac appearing front timing cover arrangement, used a head stud layout that looked like the factory Pontiac layout, and kept all the other quirks that make a Pontiac look like a Pontiac (pass side cyl head forward, valley tray, distributor in rear, etc)........

Would anyone ever notice?

Other than a VERY small number of engine builders, I seriously doubt it. To everyone else, it would still be a 'Pontiac'.

[gene simmons]

When is a block no longer a corporate block?

When the exterior of the block no longer resembles the original.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Here's a question in response to your question:

If an enterprising person had the means to make a 'Pontiac' block that was, say, 4.840 bore spacing

Why not 5" bore space?

[krisr]

Originally Posted by gene simmons

Why not 5" bore space?

4.840" bore spacer would be smarter/appealing because;

Originally Posted by Travis Q

utilized a BBC crankshaft

Would save a heap of cash.

[GREATGTO]

Pontiac racers may want bigger engines, but what everyone else needs is a short deck pontiac block. Like I said before these old cars are getting harder and harder to find and when you do find one at a decent price its needs everything.

The block needs to be able to fit into 3rd and 4th gen firebirds and trans ams since those are the only rear wheel drive pontiacs left that can be bought very cheap.

The people who drive their old pontiacs are perfectly happy with what they have, no changing those people.

You want to start a new market and sell blocks just build a 4th gen firebird with a new short deck block. Build a street friendly car that anyone can build at an affordable price.

You have to bring younger people into the pontiac hobby or its dead. Once the younger people see what can be done with a traditional style pontiac short deck block you can spring the big stretched blocks on them later, they are more open than the old timers on these forums. Destroy some LS engines on the street and track they will catch on.

This is just my opinion

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Here's a question in response to your question:

If an enterprising person had the means to make a 'Pontiac' block that was, say, 4.840 bore spacing (factory BBC bore space), utilized a BBC crankshaft, used a BBC camshaft height (so a BBC timing chain could be used), but yet kept a Pontiac appearing front timing cover arrangement, used a head stud layout that looked like the factory Pontiac layout, and kept all the other quirks that make a Pontiac look like a Pontiac (pass side cyl head forward, valley tray, distributor in rear, etc)........

Would anyone ever notice?

Other than a VERY small number of engine builders, I seriously doubt it. To everyone else, it would still be a 'Pontiac'.

I actually kicked that idea around 7-8 years ago. Cfe came to me and told me they could stretch a tiger head to fit a bbc block and no one would have known the difference... If you put a cfe 4.600 sb head on a pontiac block, would it be a sb or pontiac???

[GREATGTO]

I have a friend who used to restore vintage cadillacs, business was great until all his clients died. Pontiacs need a youth movement and in a hurry.

[Aaron Quinton]

It's a great question and a tough call. I reckon it depends on the use of the answer provided. In my mind if it's a 10.23" deck or shorter with a stamped valley cover and die cast Pontiac front cover/water pump then it's ok. 5" bore centers are acceptable in my mind. A 4.84" bore center would allow common BBC cranks to be used for cost. The bottom line is it's looks like a Pontiac then it's ok.

Are these experimental engines? Hardly, it's just new geometry on 70 year old architecture in my mind.

[Tom Vaught]

There is no such thing as a Pontiac "Corporate Block" any longer. Same deal with the Oldsmobile "Corporate Block". General Motors Killed both Divisions. There is no 'living parent' (except for the 3rd/4th gen type vehicles with the Chevrolet "Corporate Block".

So you are basically playing with "Historical Blocks" (same deal as the other manufacturers that folded/died).

For the Engine to be a "Historical Engine" it has to have the basic items Mike G.
1. stock bore spacing. 2. 10 head bolts 3. a cylinder head of a general design engineered by Pontiac.

So Bob, Pontiac stopped racing (as a Corporation Division) in the early 60s.

So you can't call it a Race Block, or a Corporate Block, but might get away with a AFTERMARKET "Historical Engine" block, crank, heads, etc.

Tom V.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Here's a question in response to your question:

If an enterprising person had the means to make a 'Pontiac' block that was, say, 4.840 bore spacing (factory BBC bore space), utilized a BBC crankshaft, used a BBC camshaft height (so a BBC timing chain could be used), but yet kept a Pontiac appearing front timing cover arrangement, used a head stud layout that looked like the factory Pontiac layout, and kept all the other quirks that make a Pontiac look like a Pontiac (pass side cyl head forward, valley tray, distributor in rear, etc)........

Would anyone ever notice?

Other than a VERY small number of engine builders, I seriously doubt it. To everyone else, it would still be a 'Pontiac'.

As great of an idea as this is, unfortunately I think it would catch a lot of grief from none other than the traditionalist Pontiac community. I hate to say that, but I have been building and working on cars all my life, and I've never seen the division that there seems to be in the Pontiac world. I think the guys that were unwilling to run it (and a lot that simply couldn't afford it) would be it's main detractors.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

As great of an idea as this is, unfortunately I think it would catch a lot of grief from none other than the traditionalist Pontiac community. I hate to say that, but I have been building and working on cars all my life, and I've never seen the division that there seems to be in the Pontiac world. I think the guys that were unwilling to run it (and a lot that simply couldn't afford it) would be it's main detractors.

Talk to some olds people. They make us look like one big happy family.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

There is no such thing as a Pontiac "Corporate Block" any longer. Same deal with the Oldsmobile "Corporate Block". General Motors Killed both Divisions. There is no 'living parent' (except for the 3rd/4th gen type vehicles with the Chevrolet "Corporate Block".

So you are basically playing with "Historical Blocks" (same deal as the other manufacturers that folded/died).

For the Engine to be a "Historical Engine" it has to have the basic items Mike G.
1. stock bore spacing. 2. 10 head bolts 3. a cylinder head of a general design engineered by Pontiac.

So Bob, Pontiac stopped racing (as a Corporation Division) in the early 60s.

So you can't call it a Race Block, or a Corporate Block, but might get away with a AFTERMARKET "Historical Engine" block, crank, heads, etc.

Tom V.

I don't really see the relevance of that. The BBC, SBC, BBF, RB Mopar, etc, etc. is just as dead as the Pontiac or Olds from a production standpoint. GM still makes SBC and BBC crate engines, but they are all obsolete engine designs and are a thing of the past. None of them have came in a vehicle from the factory in quite some time. The designs are getting older every year.

The difference in Chevy guys and Pontiac guys is that most Chevy guys don't really care if you modify the historical parameters of their obsolete engines if it makes them go faster. They've been doing it a loooong time too...

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...evy-big-block/

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Talk to some olds people. They make us look like one big happy family.

Hahaha!!! Very True!


Tom Syron

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Talk to some olds people. They make us look like one big happy family.

Really? I didn't know that. Good to know there's somebody out there more dysfunctional than us!

[Aaron Quinton]

Wow. I find it hard to believe there is more in fighting anywhere other than in the Pontiac community.

There's just not enough of us Pontiac people left to tolerate it. The in fighting is driving people away any we're not bringing in new young people which means it dies in the near future.

It's no wonder people moving elsewhere. I know we all like to give Marcella crap for running something else but has anyone looked at the LS architecture? There are some things to be learned there. Any high revving Pontiac has bearing and feed systems that look like an LS. I like them.

Originally Posted by John Langer

Talk to some olds people. They make us look like one big happy family.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

Wow. I find it hard to believe there is more in fighting anywhere other than in the Pontiac community.

There's just not enough of us Pontiac people left to tolerate it. The in fighting is driving people away any we're not bringing in new young people which means it dies in the near future.

It's no wonder people moving elsewhere. I know we all like to give Marcella crap for running something else but has anyone looked at the LS architecture? There are some things to be learned there. Any high revving Pontiac has bearing and feed systems that look like an LS. I like them.

I like them too, but I'm not putting in my dadgum Pontiac!