[mgarblik]

I have no dog in this fight because we are going to run our IA II based engine until we quit racing, (which may be sooner than we would like at this rate), but with one single race in the country each year with a large car count, Norwalk I would caution whoever makes the decision not to get too restrictive. As has been said countless times, Pontiac is long gone, the numbers will continue to dwindle, excluding the few people who are willing to really push the envelope and go for the 5's and maximum HP, I would be hesitate to tie their hands. Like I stated in my first post, your not going to get a consensus on this thread.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by azbirds

I would like to see a short deck block like the 301, that has more beef to it. I would also run a stretched version, as long as it has the features of a traditional Pontiac. Most people don't even realize We had a different engine then the other GM brands. I see this every Saturday night when I open the hood of my 68 Firebird at the local cruise.

Why?


GTO George

[alloy indian]

My thoughts on this are and I'm as core Pontiac as can be. I'm tired of being happy that a Pontiac qualifies for a race I want to see them win a lot more than they have. I love the traditional design but if you couldn't tell the difference from the outside if it had a 5 inch bore space and what ever deck height or crank design most wouldn't know the difference unless they where told. I think we can be competitive and not throw tradition under the bus. Look most Chevy people cheer when their after market engines win a race, but they don't have the funds to build a motor of this caliper so they build a traditional style engine for their car. If someone steps up to make a modern race style engine it will bring more sales to the traditional style engines because that's what the masses can afford. Everyone likes a winner and they will be knocking your door down to get in on the fun and that means sales of all Pontiac hardware. Win on Sunday sell on Monday sound familiar? As far as the fastest Pontiac it would require a traditional class as well as a modern class to be fair. I say it's a win, win situation for all as long as the engine looks identical to the original design. What you cannot see will not matter to most and if it does they can run a traditional Pontiac engine. They said they would never sell more than a couple hundred Edelbrock heads! Build it and they will come!

[azbirds]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Why?


GTO George

The younger crowd just doesn't know better. I take alot of kids for rides to introduce them to the Pontiac engine

[GTOGEORGE]

You can change the block all you want but it won't be a Pontiac. The blocks we have now are just beefed up versions of a Pontiac block, a 389 crank will bolt right in ..........a389 head will bolt right on......hence its a Pontiac block. Change the block where a crank won't bolt in or a head won't bolt on and it's not a Pontiac block its just that simple. You can discuss it all you want it won't change anything. We are stuck with what we have.........!


GTO George

[Elarson]

For our own personal projects, I like the challenge of being more of a purist and keeping most of the stock architecture (bore spacing and wedge heads in particular).

In general, there are no black and white answers, but I think it can be called a Pontiac engine if it keeps a majority of Pontiac factory architecture. The list of parameters would be (in no particular order):

bore spacing
head bolt pattern
wedge valve layout
valve cover rail
timing cover
oil pan rail
main bearings locations
outward appearance of block
right bank forward of left bank

So maybe as long as you have 6 or 7 features out of the 9, it's still true enough to the original Pontiac design (in my world)??

For example: M/T hemi heads.....only changes 2 parameters. OK in my book.

Our Boss Bird nitro engine keeps 9 out of 9 parameters.

But we do need to be welcoming of those who want to stretch the envelope further.

Eric

[Sirrotica]

How about a short deck block that has the #2 cylinder forward, takes a Pontiac timing cover and a longer valley cover, has 5 inch bore centers and a dual bellhousing pattern. It would require stretched heads, longer valve covers, most likely billet camshaft, different intake, and stretched headers longer oil pan. A skirted block with cross bolted mains would be a welcome addition. If the mains were designed to accept a already produced crank that may save a couple bucks.

Reduced reciprocation weight for the lower deck gives it ability to rev higher, while 5 inch bore centers still allow a relatively large displacement.

Another thought, keep the bore center as is, and make a V10 short deck block by adding 2 cylinders. Giving 2 more cylinders on the predetermined existing bore centers and a lower deck would be killer, IMO. GM, chrysler and ford, have added or subtracted cylinders on production engines for years to change displacement as needed. Maybe core boxes could be lengthened easier than completely new molds.

RA V, V10 has a nice ring to it..............

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

How about a short deck block that has the #2 cylinder forward, takes a Pontiac timing cover and a longer valley cover, has 5 inch bore centers and a dual bellhousing pattern. It would require stretched heads, longer valve covers, most likely billet camshaft, different intake, and stretched headers longer oil pan. A skirted block with cross bolted mains would be a welcome addition. If the mains were designed to accept a already produced crank that may save a couple bucks.

Reduced reciprocation weight for the lower deck gives it ability to rev higher, while 5 inch bore centers still allow a relatively large displacement.

Another thought, keep the bore center as is, and make a V10 short deck block by adding 2 cylinders. Giving 2 more cylinders on the predetermined existing bore centers and a lower deck would be killer, IMO. GM, chrysler and ford, have added or subtracted cylinders on production engines for years to change displacement as needed. Maybe core boxes could be lengthened easier than completely new molds.

RA V, V10 has a nice ring to it..............

A Pontiac-architecture V10? Now that's a cool idea!!!!

Eric

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

You can change the block all you want but it won't be a Pontiac. The blocks we have now are just beefed up versions of a Pontiac block, a 389 crank will bolt right in ..........a389 head will bolt right on......hence its a Pontiac block. Change the block where a crank won't bolt in or a head won't bolt on and it's not a Pontiac block its just that simple. You can discuss it all you want it won't change anything. We are stuck with what we have.........!

GTO George

I disagree, a IA 2 block with a 5 " bore,that you can still bolt a pontiac tc and other accessories,would still be considered a pontiac,but it has to resemble a traditional pontiac,not just a merlin block with pontiac heads. IMO

I bet big chief would like to have a 5" bs IA2 block about now.

Bob and Frank,i am glad you are looking to the future for even more changes and improvements to the IA 2 block.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Elarson

For our own personal projects, I like the challenge of being more of a purist and keeping most of the stock architecture (bore spacing and wedge heads in particular).

In general, there are no black and white answers, but I think it can be called a Pontiac engine if it keeps a majority of Pontiac factory architecture. The list of parameters would be (in no particular order):

bore spacing
head bolt pattern
wedge valve layout
valve cover rail
timing cover
oil pan rail
main bearings locations
outward appearance of block
right bank forward of left bank

So maybe as long as you have 6 or 7 features out of the 9, it's still true enough to the original Pontiac design (in my world)??

For example: M/T hemi heads.....only changes 2 parameters. OK in my book.

Our Boss Bird nitro engine keeps 9 out of 9 parameters.

But we do need to be welcoming of those who want to stretch the envelope further.

Eric

Why valve cover rail?
Why wedge valve layout? If the head can be bolted to a stock Pontiac block isnt that good enough?

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by 3fastgtos

Not that anyone asked but here's my two cents. I'm sure everyone will think I'm biased because my engine falls into my beliefs of what a Pontiac is. But that's why I built it within my guidelines.
You can alter the deck height but not the bore center. A factory crank and heads need to bolt onto the block. A factory timing cover needs to be able to bolt to it also? Don't care about cam size, pistons, rods. These items are altered for strength and reliability.
The valve layout in the heads also should resemble the factory layout. Inline and either eiieeiie or eieiieie.
The guys at the top of the field in the pro classes are not "purists", they run a variant of a brand. The owner of the Promod car that I drive says he runs a Brad 5 Hemi, never once has he said that he runs a Chrysler, Plymouth, or Dodge.
If some guys want to reinvent the wheel and build a 960" Pontiac variant with splayed valve heads and run it in Promod then more power to them. But it should disqualify them from the Pontiac record books. Or maybe have a purist class and an outlaw class.

Steve Dale

Originally Posted by Elarson

For our own personal projects, I like the challenge of being more of a purist and keeping most of the stock architecture (bore spacing and wedge heads in particular).

In general, there are no black and white answers, but I think it can be called a Pontiac engine if it keeps a majority of Pontiac factory architecture. The list of parameters would be (in no particular order):

bore spacing
head bolt pattern
wedge valve layout
valve cover rail
timing cover
oil pan rail
main bearings locations
outward appearance of block
right bank forward of left bank

So maybe as long as you have 6 or 7 features out of the 9, it's still true enough to the original Pontiac design (in my world)??

For example: M/T hemi heads.....only changes 2 parameters. OK in my book.

Our Boss Bird nitro engine keeps 9 out of 9 parameters.

But we do need to be welcoming of those who want to stretch the envelope further.

Eric

As much as I would like to see some out the box ideas with the design, I have to say what you guys are doing is more impressive because you are building unbelievably strong engines using all the Pontiac parameters. I sit back and patiently wait for you guys to raise the bar!

[Dave Polichena]

I say stretch it and give us longer cylinder bores. Keep the front, top & rear of the block to resemble a Pontiac and nobody would prolly not even notice. Whomever is going for the big number is buying Billet cranks, pistons, rods, custom oil pans ect. anyway, how much more is going to be spent for new heads and a block? It seems that HP has been peaked somewhat in the N/A arena, I would like to see an 1100 hp motor that could go 200 rounds without having to worry that my headgaskets are going to start leaking or my pistons are getting beat up.

[mgarblik]

Eric posted what he and I have concluded fits "OUR" definition of what a Pontiac engine is. It isn't based on anything or a negotiated definition from a group of Pontiac racers. Just our feelings. Why the stock Pontiac valve cover rail? Because it forces the factory in-line valve layout that 'WE" feel is an important component of the Pontiac design. I think the MT Hemi heads are super cool and the CV series heads may prove to be winners some day. They just aren't right for US, no particular reason and they shouldn't be excluded from any Pontiac racing or records in my opinion.
When you start changing bore spacing and stretching the block, the decision of records and so forth is going to have to be decided by others. We are talking about a tiny number of people who could care a less. We are also talking about less than 30 cars who may ever try to be the fastest. If you google up "worlds fastest Pontiac" you get some late model TA with a Big Block Chevy anyway, so very few people in the world really give a damn one way or another. Again, I say do whatever you want, call it a Pontiac if you feel that way about it and if the general Pontiac fan base can relate to it as a Pontiac you are good to go. I think I mentioned before over the many years racing the Grocery Getter we heard "That's a strong running Small Block" hundreds of times. 4 valve cover fasteners and that's all they saw. We corrected as many as we could.

[tom s]

I bleed pontiac as much as anyone,if we want something diff we already have it in the old pontiac prostock stuff(BBC).Why try and spend the huge money to make wider bore spacing when there is only a handfull of people that would build it anyway.AS I said before if a 55 pontiac V8 head bolts to the block im good,also if the head bolts to a 55 pontiac block I think im also good with it.
I do think the turbo guys would like a short deck block as CI is not as important.JMO,Tom

[azbirds]

The V-10 and V-12 Pontiac have been on my mind for a long time.

[Matt Meaney]

the IA 2 block, tiger heads, billet RAV's, hybrid Chinese forged cranks, and any other aftermarket made parts are not Pontiac. they weren't made by Pontiac/GM for production or over the counter sales. they aren't licensed by or carry a GM part number. any car powered by said parts, didn't set any Pontiac performance record.

20 or so years ago, Edelbrock heads were poo-pooed by many and wouldn't sell much. now they are considered by many THEE heads. (ehttfmf) and have the performance to back it up. so much so, that an aftermarket block had to be produced to better handle the power. this led to more nitrous and forced induction combo's that upped the power potential some more.

let those few people, who would, run a 5" bore space block with the other modifications to compliment and call it a Pontiac. just like the merlin, etc. are "chevy". then when success is shown, in the deep end of the pool with the other makes. more people will jump on the band wagon. in 20years from now, (when todays, stuck in the past, bore space, bolt to a factory made this or that, aren't going to try and poo-poo it) Pontiac performance will be alive and well, instead of spoken about in the past tense.

[alloy indian]

I don't know why everyone thinks an engine configuration which could compete with the millions of Chevy, Ford and Mopars would appeal to only a few. I think even if it took only a small portion of the high end market it would out sell the traditional Pontiac design! Being able to compete and win with the other aftermarket offerings would appeal to a wide market. Like the guys that put a Chevy in their Pontiac so they can WIN!!! on a national level. How many Pontiacs do you see in say Pro Mod with a traditional Pontiac engine configuration. Do your home work and make it superior! If you can win a lot of races there would be a lot of Chevy, Ford or Mopar converts. Also as I said before this would bring a lot of sales to the traditional stuff from the positive exposure they would get just as the other brands enjoy now. I would only be interested in the traditional stuff but would cheer on the people who decided to make the switch. To grow is to survive and it will be a ripple effect on the rest of our hobby. It cannot hurt.

[Tom Vaught]

I went to the race at Milan to see my Boss run his Mustang (Door Car) with a 7.50 spec chassis.Stock front suspension points, etc. Ford Engine.

So He Runs in the All Motor class with his combination at about GTOGeorge's weight.
7.80 NA in his class. He actually made the engine smaller to fit in the class <700 cid.

So he has a 4.8" Bore with a reduced stroke 4.8" (for the class) and a TRUE Ford Racing Block and Heads.

So here the Pontiac Community is arguing over moving the Bore centerlines from 4.625" to maybe 4.675" and the RACE Production Ford Block has 4.8" Bores. Figure out the bore spacing on that deal.

The car is 3 tenths faster than GTOGeorge's Dual Dominator, 8-71 blown, zoomie headers, 14x32 type tire Pontiac and the Ford can run pass after pass with NO maint.

So my point is the Pontiac guys are so far behind the curve you might as well stay with the stock dimensions.

There event was the normal Milan Dragway monthly heads up race, not some NATIONAL EVENT, (with regional guys from around Michigan racing).

A Boosted Engine DOOR car (not a light aze dragster) ran 257 mph with a 3.8 second 1/8th mile time. Regular racers, not John Force type guys. So you see why the 230+ mph roller skate stuff (at Norwalk) was ho hum stuff in my opinion.

The little Monthly Milan deal and a racer runs 257 mph.

Just saying.

Argue all you want, you are a bunch of grade school guys playing basketball with Michael Jordon level competition.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

you are a bunch of grade school guys playing basketball with Michael Jordon level competition.

Probably explains your example.

Ford spends millions and millions of dollars on their race stuff, and what the 'grade school' guy spends $10,000?

Yah, gloat all you want, but I'd be ashamed to spend that much money and only show that?

[BILL BOWMAN1]

I have thought for a long time about this debate. Still not sure how to put into words, but here it goes. First off, I have an IAII in my car, I love it, and it is every bit as much a Pontiac to me as the 421 that it replaced. Pontiac stopped producing our engines in 1979. Thankfully we have two suppliers for blocks now. But, All Pontiac and KRE are not General Motors. So in many eyes, making changes to engine parameters, is making it a non Pontiac or experimental. But, if Pontiac lasted a few more years, and changed bore spacing, head bolt count, deck hight, there would be no discusion about these changes. Why limit ourselves to factory specs just because Pontiac Motor Division is dead and burried.
As someone else mention, as long as it resembles a Pontiac, has all the features that we recognize, and is designed and produced by "Pontiac" people, I am ok with it. If AP had an 800 inch monster avilable like this, I would put one in my car, and proudly call it a Pontiac. My 2¢