[Robert C.]

Originally Posted by BILL BOWMAN1

I have thought for a long time about this debate. Still not sure how to put into words, but here it goes. First off, I have an IAII in my car, I love it, and it is every bit as much a Pontiac to me as the 421 that it replaced. Pontiac stopped producing our engines in 1979. Thankfully we have two suppliers for blocks now. But, All Pontiac and KRE are not General Motors. So in many eyes, making changes to engine parameters, is making it a non Pontiac or experimental. But, if Pontiac lasted a few more years, and changed bore spacing, head bolt count, deck hight, there would be no discusion about these changes. Why limit ourselves to factory specs just because Pontiac Motor Division is dead and burried.
As someone else mention, as long as it resembles a Pontiac, has all the features that we recognize, and is designed and produced by "Pontiac" people, I am ok with it. If AP had an 800 inch monster avilable like this, I would put one in my car, and proudly call it a Pontiac. My 2¢

Amen to that statement.

But would the General Pontiac bless the move?

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I went to the race at Milan to see my Boss run his Mustang (Door Car) with a 7.50 spec chassis.Stock front suspension points, etc. Ford Engine.

So He Runs in the All Motor class with his combination at about GTOGeorge's weight.
7.80 NA in his class. He actually made the engine smaller to fit in the class <700 cid.

So he has a 4.8" Bore with a reduced stroke 4.8" (for the class) and a TRUE Ford Racing Block and Heads.

So here the Pontiac Community is arguing over moving the Bore centerlines from 4.625" to maybe 4.675" and the RACE Production Ford Block has 4.8" Bores. Figure out the bore spacing on that deal.

The car is 3 tenths faster than GTOGeorge's Dual Dominator, 8-71 blown, zoomie headers, 14x32 type tire Pontiac and the Ford can run pass after pass with NO maint.

So my point is the Pontiac guys are so far behind the curve you might as well stay with the stock dimensions.

There event was the normal Milan Dragway monthly heads up race, not some NATIONAL EVENT, (with regional guys from around Michigan racing).

A Boosted Engine DOOR car (not a light aze dragster) ran 257 mph with a 3.8 second 1/8th mile time. Regular racers, not John Force type guys. So you see why the 230+ mph roller skate stuff (at Norwalk) was ho hum stuff in my opinion.

The little Monthly Milan deal and a racer runs 257 mph.

Just saying.

Argue all you want, you are a bunch of grade school guys playing basketball with Michael Jordon level competition.

Tom V.

It's not hard to make a lot of power with 694 cu in. That's kinda what this thread is about.

It is kinda funny to think that Ford had all those advantages in the muscle car era and were looking at taillights way more often that not when they were new. The fastest "Ford" of that era was an English built 2355# roller skate.

Just saying!

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

Amen to that statement.

But would the General Pontiac bless the move?

That's a great question, and I question that means a lot more to guys in your field. You are the ones that have to decide whether the it is worth the investment to tool up to make something like that.

To be honest, I honestly can't believe there is as much out there for Pontiacs as there is. There are what 4 unique aftermarket blocks (2 iron, 2 aluminum), off the top of my head, there is over 15 different aftermarket heads (Edelbrock makes 3, and KRE offers 5, 2 from Wenzler, along with Tigers, DCI RAV, McCarty RAV, and several different CV1's), and numerous intakes, cranks, etc.

To be a niche market and a boat anchor engine not produced in over 35 years, there are a ton of offerings.

My thought is that some of the hardcore Pontiac guys would come around if somebody was producing a big inch engine and they were seeing it kick everybody's ass. What I don't know is if there would enough people buying them to make it profitable.

[Matt Meaney]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

Amen to that statement.

But would the General Pontiac bless the move?

X2

and yes, I think they would.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by tom s

I bleed pontiac as much as anyone,if we want something diff we already have it in the old pontiac prostock stuff(BBC).Why try and spend the huge money to make wider bore spacing when there is only a handfull of people that would build it anyway.AS I said before if a 55 pontiac V8 head bolts to the block im good,also if the head bolts to a 55 pontiac block I think im also good with it.
I do think the turbo guys would like a short deck block as CI is not as important.JMO,Tom

I hate to say this...

The Pontiac world doesn't want to change. 95% of the group is happy with what we have, we don't need better heads, blocks or cranks. We are happy running into the 10's with our heavy weight classic hot rods.

Just look at this past Norwalk, the only class that seemed to grow was street.

I've said this before, give me an aftermarket block that looks just like a factory block on the outside, 4.250" max bore and a filled solid lifter bore casting, $1,995.00. Plus shipping.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[S/st 54]

[QUOTE=Matt Meaney;5444942]X2

and yes, I think they would

Did they care what we thought when they killed Pontiac all together in '08 or '09?

Bob I'm all about that 800inch Motor that resembles a PONTIAC!(which I like TQ's idea)
In my best Starsky and Hutch voice..... DO IT!

[67GTO4SPEED]

[QUOTE=S/st 54;5444962]

Originally Posted by Matt Meaney

X2

and yes, I think they would

Did they care what we thought when they killed Pontiac all together in '08 or '09?

Bob I'm all about that 800inch Motor that resembles a PONTIAC!(which I like TQ's idea)
In my best Starsky and Hutch voice..... DO IT!

[PontiacMatt72]

I'm not a player. I fall into that "younger generation" category, at 27 years old (for 4-1/2 more months anyway). I just took delivery of my new IA2 at Norwalk.

I can understand both points of view, the purists and the gimme more guys.

My opinion, if it still contains external similarities, such as allowing a stock timing chain cover or whatever have ya, why not give those trying to keep up with the other brands a fighting chance? I am in no position right now to buy/build a 600+" engine. But maybe someday I will, and how awesome to be able to do so and it still be considered a Pontiac? Whether it be a Pontiac inspired or Pontiac based engine, who cares that it's ever so slightly altered internally - it's entire existence is purely for one thing: to build power and go faster.

I'm on board, speaking with a small voice as one of the "up and comers" hoping to carry on the Pontiac Tradition for years to come.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

.......

Argue all you want, you are a bunch of grade school guys playing basketball with Michael Jordon level competition.

Tom V.

And all you do is sit in the peanut gallery, Tom. What exactly does that make you?

Jim

[alloy indian]

I think you all are looking at this with your Pontiac only goggles on! The hard core Pontiac people will never get on board, That is until they get tired of being blown off the track ( just look at the first aftermarkets heads) the masses said it's not a Pontiac anymore and I'll never run them. How did that work out for them. This engine design will appeal to 1000 times more people than just the Pontiac crowd. The sales could be in the 100,000's sold if it was equal to or even better than the other brands offering. It's a clean sheet design with only the outside resembling a traditional Pontiac so it can be what ever you desire it to be. Why recreate mediocre? Make it superior and watch the general public beat a path to your door.

[p4msi1]

I wonder when the old 6 cylinder pontiacs were phased out if some old timers thought that the new V8's didn't look like a pontiac because that old 6 cylinder was what they were used to. Thank goodness they brought us a V8. If pontiac was still in business they would not have an engine that resembles our old traditional V8. Maybe that was the problem with pontiac, they were building something that people did not want, sales dropped. I don't know anybody in this RACE section that does NOT want more power. I say build a spreadbore block,heads and crank and make power. We are PONTIAC people improving on the original design just like the pontiac engineers did and would do. Ford, Chevy and Chrysler evolved... I'm not saying we should abandon our current stuff but should also have available newer designs that could keep up with a BBC and I don't subscribe using a BBC block. A factory tri-power 389 or 73 SD455 hardly resembles a 6,7,8 second pontiac race engine anyway, so are we going to slam the brakes on performance because of a few valves and head bolts? To me, at this point, if pontiac people evolve it/develop it, make it better, its a Pontiac. Just my opinion.

Steve

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

Amen to that statement.

But would the General Pontiac bless the move?

If it looks like the current IA 2 block,than yes!

[mgarblik]

I don't want to rain on the Pontiac parade here but I think when Frank and Bob crunch the numbers they will find if they do in fact decide to go the radical, stretch the bore spacing route and build the block for maximum power it will only make sense economically to do it as a billet aluminum part. The cost of a clean sheet total re-design engine that would realistically compete or beat the Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson, and a dozen other proven super high HP blocks already out there would be astronomical as a casting. And for what? To sell 10 blocks? To really be super strong and compete in these circles you need: 1. wider bore spacing, 2. 2.5" or smaller mains, 3. Proprietary oiling system with drastically larger oil passages and a provision for huge oil pump with robust internal drive system. 4. 75mm or larger cam core, 5. A deep block lower crankshaft containment system cross bolted or a split block design. 6. 17 or more 9/16" or larger head studs. 7. A lifter gallery that can utilize a 1.062" or larger lifter. NOW you have a race block that can compete, It's NOT a Pontiac, but a good race block. We have a vocal few who keep saying do it, do it do it. This is what a modern race block looks like now. Just don't see how a "Pontiac" block fits this mold. Anything less is some sort of compromise and we are right back in the losers pool if we want to run with the best out there.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by twooldgoats

And all you do is sit in the peanut gallery, Tom. What exactly does that make you?

Jim

You are partially correct, I sit in the Pontiac peanut gallery making fun of people like you Jim (With their Blown Tempests with all of the wazoo parts on it) run 7s one time TOTAL and typically low 8s) when my boss runs 7.80s naturally aspirated pass after pass with his factory bodied mustang.

You also conveniently seem to forget that I WORK for the Ford Motor Company DESIGNING and TESTING the engine my Boss is using in his Mustang (built with Ford Motor Company catalog Racing Parts).

I don't feel the need to DRIVE the race car. I (and my co-workers) designed the race engine. I am a Senior Engineer in Ford Research & Advanced ENGINE ENGINEERING.

Darn, Jim you are awful slow on the draw sometimes.

So if ANYONE would be a QUALIFIED PERSON to judge if an engine was a good engine it would be a guy like me with 38 years of ENGINE experience doing the job.

Sorry my valid comments hurts your little toes I am stepping on.

Tom V.

[stroker461]

I would be pissed off if I had a 700ci N/A engine and only run 7.80's, tom you say Pontiac racers are to far behind thats funny considering Mr.Dwight Ausmus is running pretty damn close to that number with his N/A 568ci Pontiac imo thats freaking AWESOME, and shows the dedication that Dwight and crew put in to there racing, also what is the weight difference between your bosses mustang and Dwight's car im sure that firebird probably weighs more, so let me get this straight mustang has 132ci more engine probably weighs less and only runs 1-2 tenths faster yea I'd be pissed, Not saying by no means that it wouldn't be cool to have a 800ci Pontiac but when you say Pontiac racers are so far behind I just dont see it sorry, again just my opinion........

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The cost of a clean sheet total re-design engine that would realistically compete or beat the Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson, and a dozen other proven super high HP blocks already out there would be astronomical as a casting.

Mike, I think you are about 4 steps up the racing chain farther than you need to be.

Bob and Frank don't need to compete against Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson, etc as there is no market in the Pontiac world for that engine. They just need to BEAT my Boss's engine that goes into catalog level (Milan Dragway level) production bodied race cars.

Why is it that Pontiac guys want to go from Ram Air IV parts to John Force parts and skip all of the other steps where there is a valid market? And then say it costs too much there is no market, etc (which is true for the Force parts).

Make a set of parts that will allow you to run 257 mph not 300+ mph.

Tom V.

You guys just want to go from the back of the line to the front of the line in parts without doing the steps in-between.

ps Yes Ford spends millions of dollars on Engine Engineering but they also SELL millions of dollars in Ford catalog race parts to Ford racers too.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Mike, I think you are about 4 steps up the racing chain farther than you need to be.

Bob and Frank don't need to compete against Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson, etc as there is no market in the Pontiac world for that engine. They just need to BEAT my Boss's engine that goes into catalog level (Milan Dragway level) production bodied race cars.

Why is it that Pontiac guys want to go from Ram Air IV parts to John Force parts and skip all of the other steps where there is a valid market? And then say it costs too much there is no market, etc (which is true for the Force parts).

Make a set of parts that will allow you to run 257 mph not 300+ mph.

Tom V.

You guys just want to go from the back of the line to the front of the line in parts without doing the steps in-between.

ps Yes Ford spends millions of dollars on Engine Engineering but they also SELL millions of dollars in Ford catalog race parts to Ford racers too.

Good Post Tom,my sentiments exactly!

[Tom Vaught]

Thank You, Gene.

This deal is like pulling teeth sometimes.

I have "gone to the well" with the Pontiac Community multiple times, be it on the subject of Boosted engines, bigger camshafts, better QUALITY properly designed heads, better affordable oil pumps, etc and even though I have the usual detractors firing shots at me constantly (because apparently I currently do not DRIVE a race car), at the end of the day hopefully the Pontiac community is moving forward in the performance arena.

I have never seen so many "I can't do it, it is too hard, it costs too much, it doesn't look like a pontiac, it has a chevy engine in it (installed BY PONTIAC) excuses, among others.

Tom V.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Mike, I think you are about 4 steps up the racing chain farther than you need to be.

Bob and Frank don't need to compete against Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson, etc as there is no market in the Pontiac world for that engine. They just need to BEAT my Boss's engine that goes into catalog level (Milan Dragway level) production bodied race cars.

Why is it that Pontiac guys want to go from Ram Air IV parts to John Force parts and skip all of the other steps where there is a valid market? And then say it costs too much there is no market, etc (which is true for the Force parts).

Make a set of parts that will allow you to run 257 mph not 300+ mph.

Tom V.

You guys just want to go from the back of the line to the front of the line in parts without doing the steps in-between.

ps Yes Ford spends millions of dollars on Engine Engineering but they also SELL millions of dollars in Ford catalog race parts to Ford racers too.

You realize your boss's car that you keep crowing about is not fast enough to make the top 10 list of fastest NA Pontiacs, right? Again, a 694 cu in engine is not hard to make powerful. High 7 second NA big block Chevy cars are a dime a dozen with less cu in than that, and they are literally everywhere.

Maybe your boss should take his Mustang to some of the guys in here with grade school skills competing with Micheal Jordon level players and they could show him to make that big fat engine actually fast...

[Tom Vaught]

He doesn't care about making it fast, He cares about making Ford Motor Company $$$ at the end of the day and At Milan Dragway last night He was the fastest in his "All Motor" class (and has been the fastest in that class multiple times at similar events).

No different vs George wanting to be the fastest in the quick 16 race at Norwalk.

He likes to drag race, like George. He does no maint on the car, can be the "best in his group (against the Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, whatever guys, not JUST pontiac guys) once a month, and is happy.

He could care less about your opinion of "how slow he is" (but he is still faster than any NA Pontiac guy etc at the event last night. More excuses and YOU also missed the point.

Tom V.