[GregP]

Has anyone ever compiled a Master list of all the correct colors (by item)needed for a complete restoration? If not has one been started?

[GregP]

Came accross this list that was starting to be compiled in 2003. Anyone have an updated "corrected" list?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=426731

[dr-doug]

I'll go out on a limb and state that info is about 1/2 right, well intentioned, but 1/2 right. I've tried to compile a list, but it seems no two people agree 100%.
If you can come up with a list that everyone will agree upon, I'll gladly send you a set of spiral shocks or a ramair carb or something. Trying to figure out how they were actually assembled is half the fun, good luck...DW

[GregP]

Originally Posted by dr-doug

I'll go out on a limb and state that info is about 1/2 right, well intentioned, but 1/2 right. I've tried to compile a list, but it seems no two people agree 100%.
If you can come up with a list that everyone will agree upon, I'll gladly send you a set of spiral shocks or a ramair carb or something. Trying to figure out how they were actually assembled is half the fun, good luck...DW

I have been going through the old posts (I'm still new here) and you are right!! I took the list JDK 1968 made and corrections that came up in some posts and have a "in the works" list. I can't vouch for any of it but I would like to see people correct what they know is wrong. If it's questionable or has multiple acceptable choices add them in. Also add in other items.
PS: This is just gathered off this site and certainly things like "chassis black" should be clarified to % black it really is, etc.
If you think this is a waist of time I understand but for a new person it may be helpful start.

Master List
Brake Backing Plates - Chassis Black, Gloss
Brake Master Cylinder - Natural Metal
Brake Master Cylinder Cover - Gold Cadmium (plating)
Brake Master Cylinder Cover Retainers - Natural Metal or Silver Cadmium (plating)
Brake Pedal Assembly - 60% Gloss Black
Brake Power Booster - Gold Cadmium (plating)
Bumper Jack, Base - Blue
Bumper Jack, Handle - Blue
Data Plate – 30% Gloss Black (as firewall)
Dash, Back Side (you don’t see it but as long as you have it out! Usually covered in light surface rust) - Natural Metal
Fenders Skirts - 60% Gloss Black
Fender Skirt Shims - Silver Cadmium (plating)
Firewall -30% Gloss black
Floors Pans (Top & Bottom) - 30% Gloss black (Sprayed at the same time as Firewall - Overspray of Car Color should be there)
Frame - Chassis Black, Gloss
Front Brake Hose Brackets - Black, Gloss
Front Lower Control Arm - Chassis Black, Gloss
Front Stabilizer - Chassis Black, Gloss
Front Stabilizer Brackets - Chassis Black, Gloss
Front Stabilizer Linkage - Chassis Black, Gloss
Front Upper Control Arm - Chassis Black, Gloss
Fuel Filler Door - 60% Gloss Black
Gearshift Idler Lever Bracket - Chassis Black, Gloss
Grille - 0% Gloss Black
Grille egg-crate - Low-gloss silver
Heater Box – 60% Gloss black
Hood, Hinge - Black Cadmium
Hood, Hinge, Spring - Silver Cadmium or Natural Metal
Hood, Underside - 30% Gloss Black
Horn Bracket - 60% Gloss Black
Horns - 60% Gloss Black
Instrument Panel, Top - 0% Gloss Black
Parking Brake Lever Assembly - 60% Gloss Black
Power Steering Pump - 60% Gloss Black
Power Steering Pump Brackets & Bolts - 60% Gloss Black
Power Steering Pump Mounting Bracket - Natural Aluminum
Pulley, Alternator - Natural Aluminum
Pulley, Harmonic Balancer - Engine Blue
Pulley, Power Steering Pump - 60% Gloss Black
Pulley, Water Pump - 60% Gloss Black
Radiator - 60% Gloss Black
Radiator Support - 60% Gloss Black
Rear Axle Assembly - Chassis Black, Gloss
Rear Brake Backing Plates - Chassis Black, Gloss
Rear Bumper Mounting Bracket - 60% Gloss Black
Rear Lower Control Arms - Chassis Black, Gloss
Rear Upper Control Arms - Chassis Black, Gloss
Spare Tire Anchor Bolt - Natural Metal
Springs – Natural Metal
Steering Arms - Natural Metal
Steering Box – Natural Metal
Steering Column Jacket - 60% Gloss Black
Steering Column Shaft - Natural Metal
Steering Column Shaft Flange - Natural Metal
Steering Knuckle - Natural Metal
Steering Linkage - Natural Metal
Sway Bar – Natural Metal
Tail Pipe Hanger Brackets - Chassis Black, Gloss
Tie Rod Ends – Natural Metal

[Bet Winner]

I added a few comments/questions to a few.

--Brake Master Cylinder - Natural Metal--some were apparently painted black. I also just purchased a 1969 NOS master still in the box that was painted black.
--Brake Master Cylinder Cover & power booster - Gold Cadmium (plating)--not zinc until 1972.
--Fenders Skirts - 60% Gloss Black--does this refer to inner fenders?
--Front Stabilizer/brackets/linkage - Chassis Black, Gloss--This must not be the stabilizer bar, but what is this?
--Pulley, Harmonic Balancer - Engine Blue--The actual pulley is black as the pulley on the water pump. The harmonic balancer is engine color

[PaulatFast]

I'm not going to address your list, there are many items I disagree with. For starters, the finishes were different from year to year and sometimes plant to plant.

The GTOAA is having the tech director for each year compile a list of finishes for their respective years. These lists will be gone over by some of the GTOAA judges and top restorers. Once the list is approved, it will be published and available from the GTOAA. While there will still be a few items that there is dissention with, owners, restorers, tech advisors and concours judges will all know what is accepted and expected.

I can't help with any other bodies or makes.

[Bet Winner]

That sounds like a good idea.

[GregP]

"The GTOAA is having the tech director for each year compile a list of finishes for their respective years. These lists will be gone over by some of the GTOAA judges and top restorers. Once the list is approved, it will be published and available from the GTOAA."

That great! Exactly what I was looking for. Is this project currently underway?

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

I added a few comments/questions to a few.

--Brake Master Cylinder - Natural Metal--some were apparently painted black. I also just purchased a 1969 NOS master still in the box that was painted black. Many replacement parts were finished differently than production line parts, for shelf storage conditions
--Brake Master Cylinder Cover & power booster - Gold Cadmium (plating)--not zinc until 1972.
--Fenders Skirts - 60% Gloss Black--does this refer to inner fenders? Yes, GM refers to inner fenders as "skirts"
--Front Stabilizer/brackets/linkage - Chassis Black, Gloss--This must not be the stabilizer bar, but what is this? Not sure about "linkage", but the brackets are the frame bushing brackets
--Pulley, Harmonic Balancer - Engine Blue--The actual pulley is black as the pulley on the water pump. The harmonic balancer is engine color

BW - note my comments in bold above

HTH!

[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by GregP

"The GTOAA is having the tech director for each year compile a list of finishes for their respective years. These lists will be gone over by some of the GTOAA judges and top restorers. Once the list is approved, it will be published and available from the GTOAA."

That great! Exactly what I was looking for. Is this project currently underway?

Yes it is, I found out at Saratoga that the sheets were in the hands of the tech advisors already. We had an informal meeting after the judging in Saratoga, all agreed it was time to up the anti. We were hoping to have alot of this done befor Dayton next year, to be honest, many of us run business's, others have demanding jobs. We all have familys, finding even more time to volunteer to the hobby isn't that easy. No promise on completion date, I can promise it's being done.

[motorcitymusclecar]

How can you compile a list of colors that is accurate when these cars were built in many assembly plants and things were done different at every plant. There were also many part suppliers and the color would vary from run to run. I have seen many parts in a variety of plating colors. Some times fender shims were black phosphate and othes were silver cad. Degrees of gloss, is another one that is difficult to nail down. What is 60% gloss or 50% or 100%.

These cars are a manufactured goods and the build is a process. The master cylinder was black after it was cast then the machining was done. So the body is black and all the machined surfaces are bare metal. The rear drum backing plate was phosphate gray and after it was installed on the car it was backed out once the axle was installed. So one side would be black and the other phosphate. Many other parts on the car were dipped in black paint: Frame, Core support, inner fenders, under body and engine brackets. So they should have runs and streaks in the black dye.

After the chassis was done, with all the lines, cables, hoses, brackets they were blacked out. The worker sprayed over it all with black paint. This covered the tags, markings and bare metal parts, including rear ends, control arms, and rear drums.

The engine was the same process, The engine was mostly assembled and then the blue paint was sprayed over all the detail. It was sprayed over the hardware and the brackets and in some cases the hoses. The paint was thin and barley a covering.

The outer body was just as bad, runs, paint flaws, bad body work. Just about every car done today is over- restored. If you truly want to know all the correct colors go to you local car show and take pictures of Original Un-restored low mile cars - that have not been messed with. It could be a nova, Impala, GTO, skylark - it does not matter it was all the same process. Or you can copy the fully restored car but how do you know it is right.

[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by motorcitymusclecar

How can you compile a list of colors that is accurate when these cars were built in many assembly plants and things were done different at every plant. .......


....... Or you can copy the fully restored car but how do you know it is right.

John I agree completely! One of the issues that I have noted is the different standards used by individual Judges. What one Judge may consider correct, another may think is totally wrong. At least if we have a set of guidelines that a majority consider correct and acceptable, owners, restorers and judges will have a direction to take. While guys like you have access to great unrestored cars, others may be doing their first car, starting with a basket case and need help. That won't mean a car not built to those standards is incorrect, there are always exceptions.

[carbking]

Certainly an admirable goal, but one that may generate much dissention.

I personally have struggled to attempt to nail down finishes on just carburetors. This involves some components that may have come down the assembly line in four different finishes THE SAME DAY; components that change finish but not part number, and components that are used by different plants that are different materials, just to name a few.

I, for one, will be glad to help where possible; but would suggest that an attitude of "this is what we currently believe, subject to new information" be adopted by all!

Let me offer one example of possible conflict:

Carter Carburetor was located across from Howard Crown Plating. Carter had a minimum military corrosion specification for electroplating. This minimum could be met using (A) zinc, (B) cadmium, and either natural white or with the yellow conversion coat. As steel components arrived at Carter from various stamping plants, these components would be sent over to Howard Crown and plated with whatever finish Crown was running that day! I actually have new old stock Carter carburetors which have all four finishes exhibited on the same carburetor! Crown did run more white zinc than other finishes; but one cannot say that any given Carter carburetor should have white zince as opposed to yellow cad, or the others.

The colors of the tags, however, are more rigid; with basically an original color, and one or two colors for SR units.

Are you also trying to catalogue inspectors markings?

Jon.

[motorcitymusclecar]

The GTOAA has asked me several times to help with this list at first it was a group of years and now it is yearly, it can only be a general guide and you are right it is all in the eye of the judge. We only have 15-20 minutes to spend on these cars and we have to make sure all the mechanicals work, radio, clock, and have to check numbers on the engine, heads, carb, dist and 5 pages of other information and now we have to refer to a master list of colors. I think we need more time and less cars to judge and more guys to help and that is where the the problem is we only have so much time and not enough help.

I was having a discussion last week were a guy told me there we an average of 12,000 parts to make a car. If we could fit the color and description on a single line the manual would be 600 pages and we would never be able to find what we are looking for. If you want to know what is wrong on the car the assembly manual is available for 25 bucks and has hundreds of pages that you can go page by page and make sure the car is correct and not every one has one.

Judging is only as good as the knowledge of the judge, many things are missed and a few are debated but in the end the best cars always stand out and get a gold. The window for gold is 50 points - thats alot of wrong stuff to get you a silver, if you are trying for a gold and if you are not sure what will get you a gold - look at the gold cars there is a difference. Look and improve.

[motorcitymusclecar]

CarbKing - right on - now we have a start on carbs only 11,999 parts to go

[GregP]

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

I'm not going to address your list, there are many items I disagree with. For starters, the finishes were different from year to year and sometimes plant to plant.

The GTOAA is having the tech director for each year compile a list of finishes for their respective years. These lists will be gone over by some of the GTOAA judges and top restorers. Once the list is approved, it will be published and available from the GTOAA. While there will still be a few items that there is dissention with, owners, restorers, tech advisors and concours judges will all know what is accepted and expected.

I can't help with any other bodies or makes.

Did these lists ever get done or was it decided to abandon the idea?

[68RamII]

GregP,

I am a color technologist for PPG industries and have been doing this for over 15 years. I can tell you there are many different ways to measure the gloss level of a paint surface. I can also tell you that in 2011, the level of gloss of a low gloss paint can vary greatly depending on humidity or the way it is applied. It is a very unstable product. Then you have to factor in batch to batch variation.

I certainly was not in the paint industry back in the 60's or 70's but I would have to say there is no way to tell the level of low gloss on a specific part.

Good Conversation!

[paint guy]

I was (and still am) involved with certain aspects (OEM parts finishing) of automotive painting in the 70's, and can state with certainty that alot of glosses and sheens of various parts were measured with a 60 * glossimeter. Typically a hand-held apparatus that would shine a light on the painted surface at a 60 degree angle, and measure the amount of light reflected. 20 and 85 degree angles were also employed, but the std. was the 60* angle (typically). Manufacturing stds for semi-gloss paint might be a range of 58-62 to a 60 sheen paint, typically checked at 1 mil, as the gloss will vary depending on applied film thickness, as 68 RamII mentioned above. (The heavier the film, the higher the gloss). As a perspective, your typical factory BC/CC paint on todays cars might read 90-95 @60*, and perhaps 85 or so @20 *. Have my doubts about the 0*(Dead flat?)from the above list (instrument Panel), but I suppose anythings possible.

[68RamII]

Paint Guy,

You are correct about the 60 degree gloss meter reading. This was and still is the standard used by GM. Humidity seems to vary the gloss more than anything.

[Half-Inch Stud]

I support the notion of a "Master paint list" However, I see a glaring difference in Firewall & Exterior Floor colors for the 70 Judge vs 68 GTO.

For example: the 70 Judge Firewall (Arlington TX build) paint is a medium Medigrayscale color, not any % Black. Black could be sprayed on top and it will blend but will be wrongk. The Medium Gray is deep&dark but not charcoal. would be an "Original" indicator huh.

The 68 PON-built GTO has the typical medium % gloss Black firewall.