#901  
Old 12-10-2015, 05:34 PM
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Default Notarity through the years

Humm, interesting perspectives.

I'm not sure any of those types of cars have drawn as much interest for so long. Let me post a few pictures and see what you think after looking them over if the Blackbird fits in any of the categories mentioned.

But when you have John "Cheater" Politzer who must be having flash backs at nights when he walks by the car bugging me to sell it, it gets a little tiring!

You do know when we did the photo shoot I wanted him and Brian to take the car out on Woodward. John oped to drive the photo car and I had Brian ride shot gun with me.

Andy happy holidays and best wishes to Kenny! Hope to see you guy next year.

I'll be fine in the morning!

Foot note....It's not like the Black Bird is leaving my possession so quickly!
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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-10-2015 at 05:40 PM.
  #902  
Old 09-29-2016, 08:47 AM
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Boy it has been a while since I have visited this forum. With so many things going on this summer I only brought the Black bird out of the garage twice.
It would have come out more often if the weather had cooperated. Our usual Woodward Dream Cruise Tuesday gathering was rained out. The official Dream Cruise day, Saturday, had a storm coming in early afternoon. Ever try driving several miles on slicks on wet roads? Only my GTO came out that day.
It was unfortunate that I did not have the Black Bird parked in Birmingham that day. I had two very surprising guests hunt me down to see the Bird. It was Mike Kneiper the original owner of the 'Bird and his brother Pat. I invited to come back to the house to see and sign the car. Unfortunately they were both flying back to their respective homes.
Mike lives in Florida and Pat in Texas.
History is that Mike ordered my car in November 1967 and when deieverd the engine was immediately removed and a stronger one in stalled. Pat had also ordered a 1968 Firebird but his was ordered in March/April 1968 and came as a Ram Air II. All Kneiper Firebirds, Tony's '67, Mike's '68 and Pat's '68 1/2 were column shift automatic Ram Air cars.
In late '70 Mike thought he was selling the Black Bird to his friend John Polizter (Jim Wangers' street racer). Mike was surprised that it ended up with Jim Wangers.
John had fronted for Jim so that he price would not go up.

I was suprised to find the Black Bird in a fairly new automotive magazine, "STREET ROD LIFE" fall 2016 Vol. 2 NO.3. I have copied the cover and page for you. Trouble getting the cove loaded. But you can also go through the magazine on lin. Find the site, StreetRodLife.com. Click on the magazine cover. Then you can flip the pages. The Black Bird is on page 61.
Have a great day.
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  #903  
Old 09-30-2016, 09:52 PM
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Dr. Schiffer, was the Blackbird a original 400 car?

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Old 10-03-2016, 04:53 PM
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Talking Original 400 RA1

Some where in this long post...:-) I listed the few options on this car.

The car was ordered for Mike Kneiper by his brother Tony in November 1967. Mike had returned from the Army in October.
400 RA (Now known as the Ram Air 1)
Automatic (no console) so it was on the column.
3.90 Posi rear
Gauge Package (No Tac)
Tinted Glass
AM Radio
Floor Mates F&R
Power Steering (later removed)
(it was a drum brake car)
Steel Wheels and Dog Dish Hub Caps
Red Line tires.

The Black Bird was converted to a floor shift and had a Hurst Auto Stick installed. (No need to spend the extra money for a console to have the shifter on the floor when it adds more weight. You are after all changing over to a different shifter. Then you are going to throw the console out anyway.)

The Kneiper brother's were into racing.

Tony was a mechanic for Stan Long Pontiac in Detroit. Tony's '65 GTO is pictured at Detroit Raceway and Motor City Raceway forums. It was sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac.

Tony's points car was a 1967 Firebird sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac, Gratiot Auto Supply and N & S Auto Supply. It too was an original 400 Ram Air I automatic on the column. Tony installed a Hurst Dual Gate on a peddle stool on the floor.

Brother Pat had ordered a 1968 1/2 Firebird 400 Ram Air (Round Port) in March/April also with the automatic on the column.

The transmissions where reverse valve bodies. Usually built by Tom Nell of Pontiac Engineering. Tom invented it while working for PMD. B&M saw it, copied it and sold them. Tom couldn't patent it because as an employee of PMD it would have become property of GM and no one could have used it.

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  #905  
Old 10-03-2016, 05:25 PM
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Does any one have a copy of the MOPAR magazine from a few years ago that had the late Tom Hoover's green 1966 Coronet Hemi on the cover? I believe the head line was "WOODWARD TERROR".

I was looking for it to scan. Tom gives you great insight into the era of his '66 and Addison's '67 GTX.

Tom mentions a green Firebird that gave them fits. But like most bias articles that played to their audience they always beat it. Funny how the article does not mention any other brand. Just a Pontiac.

Can you guess who's green Firebird that was? John Politzer wasn't happy to hear he got beat!

In the article Tom tells you that Ted Spehar would have to drive the Coronet so he, like Jim Wangers, would not get in trouble with Corporate if pulled over for street racing.

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Old 10-04-2016, 03:05 AM
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Cool info!

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Old 10-04-2016, 06:53 AM
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Always interesting Dr. Schiffer.

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  #908  
Old 10-04-2016, 10:10 AM
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Hey Eric, I'm sorry we missed the Dream Cruise this year. A bunch of us decided to go to the Tri-Power nationals in Ohio instead. A great show but not as much fun as Woodward. Next year we hope to be back with a bigger group. There is a picture of your GTO on page 51 in the November issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines. They did a feature article on the Dream Cruise. Hope all is well. Take care, Andy.

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Old 10-05-2016, 08:15 PM
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Default Hemmings November Issue

Andy,

I got to tell you we missed you guys too. You missed a LOT of activities that have not been part of the Dream Cruise in the past.

I'll have to remember to pick up an issue this Saturday morning at Pastiener's Autozone Hobby's!!!!! Was it a nice picture of my GTO? :-)

You missed sanctioned Drag Racing all day Friday on Woodward ave near South Boulevard in Pontiac. It was sponsored by the new M1 Concourse (Car Condos' and 1.5 Mile road racing track), City of Pontiac and Fiat Chrysler and Road Kill.

They ran an 1/8 mile with two classes. All MOPAR and all others. They had grand stands all along the 1/8 mile. Dodge sponsored rides on the M1 Skid Pad in their Hell Cat Chargers, Challengers and Vipers. Look for this event on YouTube. The winning MOPAR was Mike Moran in a over 2,700 HP 1968 Charger.

http://www.drivingline.com/articles/...adkill-nights/

Richard Rollins was in attendance for the Friday night racing. He left early Saturday before the real Dream Cruise Show.

This is close to where you guy's stayed at the Center Point Marriott.

Since the Northwood Shopping Center at Woodward and 13 Mile Rd is being leveled for a new development, M1 is becoming the center for activities.

Get your reservations in early. Kinglesy Inn on Woodward at Long Lake Rd in Bloomfield Hills is still the best bet for the Dream Cruise. Lots of cars pass this way. It is being renovated and becoming a Hilton Double Tree. It will include the up scale Joe Muer Seafood restaurant. The Little Daddy's is still across the street.

Talk to you soon.

Eric

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  #910  
Old 10-05-2016, 11:11 PM
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Wow, I just spent the last couple hours reading this entire thread, SO AWESOME!

As a younger guy, reading all the stories here is my only connection to when this stuff actually happened.

I had a 56 vette just a few years ago and the 69 Firebird I just bought is going to be my pride and joy for a very long time.

Eric, thanks so much for taking the time and coming back year after year with more info!

As mentioned, if you decide to sell her, be damn sure the buyer is "worthy" and a true Pontiac enthusiast that will drive and take care of her and not someone who will stash her in a collection somewhere.

Alex

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Old 10-08-2016, 04:18 PM
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After listening to "Fast" Freddie Foreman, Jim Wanger's driver and co-mechanic of the 8 second heavy nitrous red '75 Monza , argue with many MOPAR loyalists about the Black Bird vs Silver Bullett I desided to post what the GTX looked like at the time of the race.

Freddie's words not mine: "Sure everyone wants to talk about the time Addison ran Frankie in the Black Bird the 8th time when the Bullett was a trailered "race car" with tunnel ram. While the Black Bird was still a street car driven to races. But no one wants to talk about the other 7 times that the Black Bird beat Addison."

I can not tell you how many times they ran. But Jim Wangers' hated to loose. Jim would field two to three cars at a time. As guys of the era will tell you: If you got by one of Jim's cars', he'd throw a faster one at you until he beat you.

Jim was into building fast street cars and NOT a race car that would be driven occasionally on the street. He wanted to have his cars as low maintance as possible. Not have to race one time then have to rebuild anything.

At one time the Warren shop housed (in the '80's-90's), red '74 T/A, silver '77 T/A, red '75 Monza, white Pontiac Powered Monte Carlo aka Pontiee Carlo, white Chevy Powered Monte Carlo (gutted interior, roll cage and heavy Nitrous), modified Grand National and a Modified Buick T-Type. This is not including Jim's collection of stock cars; Verdoro Green with black vinyl top '68 Firebird 400, Trans Am's: '69 Trans AM (Magazine Test Car), '79 Trans Am Silver Anniversary (32 miles) and '99 Turbo T/A (documented Indy Parade car). A garage full of 12 second to 8 second cars. Pick your posion. LOL. Oh yah, then there was Jim's Pontiac Suburban tow vehical painted like the Trans Am Bandit.

Oh, for a few years the Black bird sat along side the red '75 Monza with it's engine out. after all these cars where in retirement. Yesterday's news...

This is not counting what Jim had out in California in the '80-90's. A couple of Judges and a white Chevy Barretta that had reworked engine and Nitrous. When Jim retired. Eventually everything was either sent to California, sold or given away. A Judge was sent back to Detroit for Jim to use for the Woodward Dream Cruise. That car too eventually went back to California to be sold. (some where I have pictures of these cars in the AMCI Detroit shop. Some I have already posted)

In 1997 We went to Norwalk with the '74 T/A, Pontee Carlo and I raced a new (rare) SLP Firehawk LT4 six speed.
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  #912  
Old 10-09-2016, 02:11 PM
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Eric, I remember meeting Freddie Foreman in the parking lot of Little Daddy's after Kenny and I joined you and your friends for dinner. Freddie is a nice guy with lots of cool stories to tell. I wish we could have spoken longer as he seemed to know a lot about street racing in the Detroit area. Maybe he could give us more information about the races between the Black Bird and the Bullet. I didn't realize that they ran that many times.

  #913  
Old 10-09-2016, 08:51 PM
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Andy,

I'm sure Freddie has many stories for you as does John Politzer and Brian Ballish about street racing with Jim Wangers'. Many of the guys at Pastiener's Auto Zone used to street race before and while working in the auto industry. Street racing was their "Market Research". After all you can't race theory's and dyno's.

All of us from this end of town lived only a few minutes from Woodward Ave, Telegraph Rd and Northwestern HWY/I-696. We have a lot of stories. But it wasn't just about street racing. There were as many girls as there were guys out there. With so many drive-in and sit down restaurants (approximately 25) and speed shops. Woodward was a teenager's social event.

Now imagine, parking along side Woodward. Cruising, racing, talking with friends or trying to pick up "Chick's. It was 8 lanes (4 in each direction) for 16 Miles of "American Graffiti".

You saw how Woodward is set up. Now imagine taking the spectator, soccer mom mini van and SUV, traffic off Woodward and putting only the classic's on the "strip". That is how it was after rush hour. Just kids from 7PM until mid night during the week. Much later on the weekend. From mom and dad's cars to the serious muscle cars. Everyone was out and about. This was our "Bar Scene".

After all this is the MOTOR CITY and street racing still occurs. Just go to YouTube.

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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 10-09-2016 at 09:03 PM.
  #914  
Old 10-09-2016, 09:28 PM
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Default Hemmings Muscle Machines

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANDYA View Post
Hey Eric, I'm sorry we missed the Dream Cruise this year. A bunch of us decided to go to the Tri-Power nationals in Ohio instead. A great show but not as much fun as Woodward. Next year we hope to be back with a bigger group. There is a picture of your GTO on page 51 in the November issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines. They did a feature article on the Dream Cruise. Hope all is well. Take care, Andy.
Andy,

I pulled up the article on line. I couldn't believe it was done by Barry Kluzack. I didn't have a chance to pick up the magazine at Pasteiner's Auto Zone on Saturday. But I did see the front clip of my GTO right up front.

I was asked late Friday night to drive the photo car while Barry photo shot a Trans Am for Muscle Car Review. How could I say no?

In the most resent issue Drew Harding in the "Letters" section said to contact Barry about doing a 1970 1/2 Trans Am. Well I did. We ended up doing a photo shoot of my friend Dave Miller's white '70 1/2 T/A Ram Air III 4 speed car.

We meet at 7:30 AM and shoot the car until 10:00 AM. Dave and I headed up the street to M1 Concours' Cars and Coffee for a few minutes then onto Little Daddy's with the usual crowd, John Politzer, Freddie Foreman, Kip Wasinko (GM Design Cadillac and Performance), Dick Ruzzin (GM Design, Chevy powered Mongusta), Phil Jacobs (Ford and Shelby Competition) and several industry guys for breakfast. Always great conversation.

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  #915  
Old 10-15-2016, 08:59 PM
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Default Complete Book of American Muscle SUPERCARS

I went to our Saturday Morning gathering to pick up the latest issue of "Hemming Muscle Machines" (November 2016) with a picture of my GTO inside.

As I was tumbing through "Muscle Machines" Steve Pasteiner tells me the Black Bird is in a new book. He hands me a copy of "The Complete Book Of AMERICAN MUSCLE SUPERCARS" by Tom Glatch.

He said the book came in the week before when I was at the photo shoot. Several guys purchased copies of the book that weekend and thought it might be nice to leave a copy for me. Great guys! Thank you!

The cover alone was worth the purchase price. The hoods of the Yenko Camaro and Shelby Mustang lift up to reveal their engines...

Well inside gracing pages 18 and 19 was an article "The Blackbird Sings". WOW! Great story. I didn't know anything about the book and I don't beleive I have ever met the author.

But few know that it is also me driving Jim Wangers' Judge on page 21. Well know you know that is me that is shadowed out.
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  #916  
Old 10-16-2016, 10:59 AM
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Oh, I forgot to mention that the story about the Blackbird in this book fits perfectly with this Forum.

The author, Tom Glatch, begins by stating in 1993 he had interviewed Tom Hoover "God Father of the Hemi" about street racing in Detroit on Northwestern Hwy/I-696 with his green '66 Coronet, Ted Spehar and Jimmy Addison's '67 GTX.

Then Tom Glatch moves onto how things evolved into Jim Wangers bringing out the Blackbird.

It is a MUST read article for all who have read this forum from the very beginning.

Enjoy the journey through time.

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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 10-16-2016 at 11:04 AM.
  #917  
Old 01-02-2017, 01:31 AM
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I hope everyone has had a great holiday. I had the opportunity to meet Don Morton who once ran Hurst Corporation for George Hurst and Franz Estereicher who is best known as the Corvette Z06 expert and owns one of Mickey Thompson's silver 1963 Corvette Z06 big tank cars and a 1962 Corvette Z06 big brake. They both attended our weekly Saturday Pasteiner's Auto Zone Hobby store gatherings. Both usually go to the Saturday gatherings at the Woodward Garage with George Delorean (Leader Automotive and John Delorean's brother) and Win Brown (early Royal Racing Team member and part of Pontiac's Daytona group).
I'll explain the reason I mention both of these guys. First Don I had told Don I owned Jim Wangers' Firebird. He asked which one? When I told him the 1968 Black one he be came very animated about the car. It said that was Jim's fastest and best stealth car. Just a black unassuming Firebird that would just blow the doors off anything on the road.
Now as for Franz, he once worked for Rockwell Industries who supplied the suspensions for GM. The springs and torsion bars. Franz designed the suspensions for Roger Penske's Camaro's and Javelins that the likes of Mark Donahue drove. Franz was also once President of Gabriel Shocks.
The reason I bring up Franz is because on a resent trip the Germany he was invited to visit a special room at Mercedes. The person who invited him knew Franz owned one of Mickey Thompson's 1963 Z06 Corvettes that raced at Daytona where Paul Goldsmith's 1963 Tempest 421 SD beat the Thompson Z06 Vettes with the Mystery Motors. The room was 6 floors DOWN. In this special room was Paul Goldsmiths Tempest. All of it's parts where still spread out on the benches from the disassembly in 1963. The body's paint still looked as it did after Paul Goldsmith drove it in 1963. The roamers that Mercedes scraped the car after purchasing it was false. Mercedes just like every manufacture buys the competition's cars to evaluate it. Then they usually reassemble it and sell it or scrap it. In this case the 1963 Tempest 421 SD just sits 6 floors below Mercedes engineering in pieces just as it has since 1963. Wow!
I was unable to down load a great article about Pontiac's Experiment into Road Racing '62 and '63 that appeared in "Vintage Motorsports" July / August and Sept / Oct 2015. Great read and show a the winning number 50 Paul Goldsmith 1963 Tempest 421 SD.

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  #918  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:13 AM
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That's very cool info. Glad it wasn't scrapped! It would be cool if it was put back together!

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Old 01-03-2017, 08:23 AM
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That would be great if somebody could get that thing outa there.

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Old 01-08-2017, 07:19 PM
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I spoke to Jim Wangers to wish him a happy New Year.
I let him know that Bob Ashton, Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals, invited me to bring the Black Bird for the 2018 November show in Rosemont, Ill (outside Chicago). Bob is having a 50th Anniversary for the F-body cars. 1967, 1968 and 1969 Firebirds and Camaros of significants. While I'm honored to get the invitation I had to turn him down. The show is always the weekend before Thanksgiving. This is a very busy time for me and my family. (This is the second time I've had to turn him down). Maybe if some one comes along with enough money, they can display the Black Bird!
It was during my conversation with Jim I informed him of the status of the Paul Goldsmith '63 Tempest. He too was surprised that the car was still in Mercedes possession, and agreed that the car should be brought back to the public eye.

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