[92GTA]

Now that I have my Ford 9" rear end in and my 4L80E on order, it's time to turn my attention to my engine.

I'd like advice on doing a max-effort 461ci (I'd like to see high 8s/low 9s in the 1/4 w/drag radials presuming everything is set up perfectly). Here is what I currently have for a short block:

461ci Butler Performance stroker kit assembled & dyno'd by Houston Engine & Balancing (fully blueprinted/balanced): 1969 Pontiac 400ci XH code engine block, 0.030" over, square decked, bored & honed w/torque plate, ARP bolts. Dayco harmonic balancer. Eagle nodular high carbon crank (polished), Eagle 4340 forged H-beam rods.

I have about 20K miles on it now and I'll be replacing the pistons as well. I'd like to go as high on the compression as possible with 93 octane (10.5:1 or 11:1 w/aluminum heads?). When I tear it down for the refresh/upgrade I'll be doing the Deluxe Mega Brace kit.

I do have just 1 restriction to the build, I MUST still be able to fit the Ram Air II air cleaner. Based on that, I "believe" that limits me to the Edelbrock Torker II, unless there is a better intake that can be milled down to a similar height? I am currently running a Torker II with a 0.5" spacer and that BARELY fits squishing the foam seal a fair bit.

What heads and cam would you guys recommend for this type of max-effort build? I presume solid roller lifters and I'll need a new set of full roller rockers to upgrade from my current COMP Cams Magnum 1.5 roller tip rockers. What's recommend for valve train control/stabilization girdle wise? I'm thinking these headers: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-35135

I'm considering going to Dave @ SD Performance for the entire package (heads/cam/intake/pistons/lifters/pushrods/rockers/gaskets/etc). But I'm curious what the consensus is here on what the max NA power level achievable for a 461 might be?

Thanks!

[ponyakr]

I'm a little confused.

You put this in the Race section & mention "Max Effort".

But, you also mention 93 pump gas, an OD trans, and possibly limiting it to a Torker 2 intake.

So, is this just a serious street/strip build ? Or is this a limited pump gas strip only build ?

With what you've mentioned, it's not even CLOSE to a "max effort" race build, IMO.

And to run high 8's you'll need some serious race equipment. You'll need a cam that will not be street friendly, at all, a small high rpm stall converter, and a strong trans with a good brake.

There are some guys here who run 8's, & some who have built 8 sec engines. Not aware of any that will run on 93 pump gas, and/or with a Torker 2 intake.

"...But I'm curious what the consensus is here on what the max NA power level achievable for a 461 might be?..."

Over 600hp, for sure. KRE lists a stock block 635hp pump gas engine. But, it has High Port heads, a Northwind intake, & a 1000cfm carb.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

Here's a horsepower calculator. Don't know how accurate it is. It says you'll need almost 900hp to run an 8.99, with a 3300 lb car. Need 761hp to run a 9.50, & 654hp to run a 9.99.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

"...I'd like to see high 8s/low 9s in the 1/4..."

My guess is that you'll have to lower your expectations a bit, if you build a 93 pump gas 461 with a Torker 2 intake.

But, lots of guys here know more than me. Some of 'em will chime in, when they see the thread.

[steve25]

I can't see reguardless of power level being used getting into the 10s with no suspension mods done to the car!!

You did not post up the details on the suspension if there are any to talk about , but in stock form that car is well over 3600 lbs without you in it so you will need well 750 hp out of the motor to get just into the mid 10 numbers and if your running under 11.5 to 1 comp this power level will take the use of heads that flow 360 Intake cfm and no matter how much work you would be willing to apply to a TQ2 Intake Manifold it is not going to flow those needed numbers!

Also the stock size air filter will not flow enough if to make the needed hp numbers if your looking to keep all the factory RA stuff in place!

[scott70]

Put a couple of turbos on it and youll have the power and streetable. Seems to be what people are doing these days.

[slowbird]

What power adder are you planning on?

[455TA]

I would put in a set of dished Ross pistons from Butler, rings gapped for boost, and get an S480 BW turbo from Work Turbochargers. 15 lbs of boost and you'll be making 1000 hp easily. Then just get the right converter for it and gear it correctly, good suspension, and 8's will be doable. Plus you won't even need a radical cam to get there and could get away with a ported Torker 2 intake as well.

[Scott65]

Seems one question you should ask yourself is, how many times are you willing to attempt that performance goal with a stock block? The turbo ideas mentioned are good ones, but the stock block makes it an iffy proposition. 600-650 is the max I'd feel safe at personally. Everyone's risk tolerance is different.

[ponyakr]

"...But I'm curious what the consensus is here on what the max NA power level achievable for a 461 might be?..."

I'm interested in reading answers to this question the OP asked.

He wants it to run on 93 pump gas, NA. Let's assume a Northwind intake & no restrictions from the air intake/cleaner system.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Intakes.htm

[AG]

Does the block have billet 4 bolt caps? My 461 making almost 700 Hp with stock cast 2 bolt caps/ARP studs had fretting between the caps and block so they were walking.

[Scott Stoneburg]

I dont see this happening N/A. I would go turbo or centrifugal blower. With either the T2 intake or a Northwind would be my choice.

[slowbird]

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but i doubt the OP knows what max effort means. Sounds like he has his head in the clouds and been reading way to much internet bs.
A realistic goal is to run 10s NA on pump gas.

[92GTA]

The block has 4 bolt mains but not billet caps, yet. That's on my list as well, forgot to mention that. My long-term goal is an aftermarket block and more cubic inches, but that is about 5-6 years off for me. Right now I'm only looking to max out the stock block. My car's numbers matching engine/trans/rear is in storage, so if this one fails, not a big deal. I have a 9" converter now with my TH400 and the Jake's 4L80E is being built to handle the power and will have a brake. Of course, a new converter will be sourced when I know the final specs of the build. Which is the purpose of this thread, to get that going.

I did not mention suspension mods because those are already done. I have a CalTracs setup with aftermarket leafs, etc. The car weighs about 3450. I think the K&N filter and K&N filter lid I run with my RAII setup should flow enough air NA, the filter lid is amazing compared to a solid lid.

No turbos or superchargers, however, I will do up to a 250 shot to get my goal of an 8.9sec time slip. My current build has the rings gapped for nitrous and I have a 250 shot wet bar in the intake, but I've never used it. If that won't do it, then so be it. My times will be what they can be. I'm also running Holley EFI. I am willing to run race gas of course at the track, but it needs to be de-tunable to street drive to the track and also to car shows. It's not a regular driver but I don't have a trailer. I do tend to drive all over CA for shows which can be 200 miles round trips multiple times a year.

You are right that I'm not using "max-effort" in the proper broader context I suppose. I do have the intake and pump gas self-imposed restrictions and power adders will not be used. Plus, yes, I don't want something that I'll need to rebuild after only 1 season. Sorry about that.

[Stan Weiss]

If everything works perfectly (car, engine, weather) I can see 625 or so N/A HP and your 250 HP nitrous shoot getting the job done (8.99) @ 3600 # total weight (you and car).

Stan

[AG]

What is your fastest time/speed so far?

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by AG

What is your fastest time/speed so far?

On my old setup, 11.46@119 at Famoso which is 625 feet. I haven't made any runs since my new rear end. I'd like to think I have a bit more if I can get the preload just right on the CalTracs and have a trans brake. I probably won't make another run until the new trans is installed. I don't think my TH400 could handle many more.

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If everything works perfectly (car, engine, weather) I can see 625 or so N/A HP and your 250 HP nitrous shoot getting the job done (8.99) @ 3600 # total weight (you and car).

Stan

That's encouraging!

[Bnick166]

Eagle nodular high carbon crank (polished)….I think this will be your limiting factor presently. Cast crank won't fair to well at the desired HP levels your seeking.

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

Eagle nodular high carbon crank (polished)….I think this will be your limiting factor presently. Cast crank won't fair to well at the desired HP levels your seeking.

Agree, which is why I'm not too keen on doing nitrous. I'd hate to buy a nice forged setup and still run a stock block tho. Do you think it would live at 650 without nitrous? Perhaps I just stop there.

[steve25]

Have you realistically considered all of the added safety requirements needed to go into this car to have it strip legal to run low 10s no less into 8s?!!!

By the way K&N filter lids are a nightmare and make for turbulence and a reduction in total air flow at high flow rates!
Go on you tube and look for the Hot Rod engine masters test of air filters .

[Steve C.]

The type of carburetor used in conjunction with the K&N X-Stream filter lid makes a big difference.

According to some articles and conversation with K&N tech dept. The X&N tech rep supported comments made by some that the entrance on a Holley 'HP' series carb with it's smooth contour does in fact act like their Stub Stack and will help it work with the X-Stream lid. Whereas apparently a carb design without a smooth contour (w/ choke tower) and like a Q-jet doesn't work well with a X-Stream lid.

Finding 14 hp in the Right Air Cleaner Assembly
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/air-cleaner-assembly/


( Information provided in this post does not represent a product endorsement. And unless specified it is not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only )


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