[ponyakr]

Here's a TRW sprocket, with holes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRW-S-305-T...8AAOSw42Fbc4Rb

So, for those who want this type sprocket and a Morse chain, they are still available, even if you have to order the pieces individually, in an NOS condition.

Again, here's a set that SHOWS the S.A. Gear sprockets, with a chain that appears to have the word MORSE, on a couple of links.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-PRO-....c100005.m1851

[ponyakr]

Googled for some more Pontiac timing sets.

Found some Elgin TC-3007 sets that are PICTURED with the 10-hole cam sprocket, in SOME listings, but show the 3-slot sprockets in some other listings.

So, again, there might be some NOS sets on a shelf somewhere, that has the 10-hole sprocket.

https://www.performanceparts.com/elg...ng_set_tc_3007

https://www.amazon.com/Elgin-TC-3007.../dp/B000CGQ9D4

Same for the SP KT3-350S set. Since there are so many vendors who list this set, there MIGHT be a greater chance that some vendor might have a set on the shelf, which actually still has the 10-hole sprocket.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sealed-Powe....c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi....c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi....c100005.m1851

https://www.autopartsandstuff.com/se...ngset-3pc.aspx

https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/...3350S/10002/-1

https://www.fabautoparts.com/sealed-...xoCEN4QAvD_BwE

https://www.carid.com/sealed-power/t...-kt3-350s.html

https://www.rvautoparts.com/KT3-350S..._p_395287.html

https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/se...iming+set,5756

I'm guessing that those 10-hole sprockets disappeared from all the new sets, at the same time. Probably when they were discontinued by whoever made 'em. Anybody ever find out who made those ?

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by steve25

... how much play there is in the timing gears...duel idler gear drive... and... Milodon single idler gear drive...

The dual-gear is subject to manufacturing tolerances, of both the engine and the drive setup. It must be dimensioned to to have at least a workable backlash in any case, so in many cases it will have considerable backlash. On the other hand, it's up to the user to set the desired backlash of a single-gear drive as he desires. I used the Donovan successfully during eleven seasons in the blown hemi engine (to 9,000 RPM on the track) and it still looks and functions perfectly and measures the same .003" backlash that I originally set it at (and dowel pinned to the block to be repeatable).
Also- I've never suffered any of the ills that are sometimes attributed to camshaft gear drive- harmonics, etc.

[Jack Gifford]

To illustrate the abuse my hemi saw, here's a sample pulling schedule for just one of those eleven years. Many events were double-sessions, requiring 4 or 5 runs through the event.

And in defense of the brand, there were an additional six seasons using other versions of "Pontiac power".

[dataway]

I saw that there are some simple gear to gear ... no idler systems available for chevy engines .... seems great ... then I imagined a piece of hardware going through them ... that would have to cause some serious harm. At least with an idler it would probably just destroy the idler.

[Cliff R]

Can't get my head wrapped around a "gear to gear" set-up as it would turn the camshaft in the wrong direction without an idler of some sort in between?

I took a few minutes yesterday to check my "old stock" timing sets. Thought I had three left but down to two (must have used one someplace and have bad cases of CRS these days...LOL). Anyhow, the first set has a date on the package of 1990 and has the heat treated metal gears that are very dark almost black in color. The second set has the same part numbers on the gears (S-305 and 371) and the round holes in the top gear but not heat treated and bright/shiny, dated 1997. Both packages have the same part number on them but from different companies.

Neither chain says "MORSE" on it anyplace, one has no markings at all and the other just a small trade-stamp of some sort.

The set that is in my current 455 is also "old stock" but I'm almost certain it has the shiny gears and says MORSE right on the chain links. It's been in service since 2009 and that engine has a LOT of running time on it. Coincidentally I had to remove the timing cover for a coolant leak and the chain was in near perfect shape and the gears were in mint condition. I'd estimate slop in the chain less than 1/2" but it was pretty tight and my timing marks have never budged when checked with a timing light.

The Rollmaster timing set in my last 455 had less running time than this one and so much slop I could literally walk it right off the gears. I wished now I would have measured the lost cam timing in degrees and taken pictures of it.

I also drill a small hole in one of the front plugs to spray oil right on the timing set. Ya, I know pretty much "overkill" but a little too much oil is just right....IMHO, so all my engines get PLENTY of oil sprayed on the timing chain and gears and we can't blame timing chain wear, stretch or failure to not getting enough lubrication.......Cliff

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Can't get my head wrapped around a "gear to gear" set-up as it would turn the camshaft in the wrong direction without an idler of some sort in between?

I know some marine applications use them. They like doing things backwards (like reverse rotation)

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by dataway

I saw that there are some simple gear to gear ... no idler systems available for chevy engines

You must have been looking at gears for GM L4 and L6.

Early Ford V6 was also gear to gear. Like the Capri engine that morphed into the Ranger/Pinto V6.

About them chains,
With all the posts and links made, it appears real Pontiac chains can be found in NOS only. No matter who makes them. All new stuff is the floppy back chains that would benefit from a guide plate inside the V on the passengers side. Like more modern cars that use the floppy back chains.

Clay

[455rebel]

Ok,guys, I read this short thread on timing sets. And have too choose one? Almost wish I didn't read it cause now I worry? I would have bought a brand name 3key or more set and forgot about it. So please give me 3 options on a decent set for my 455 winter build?
Budget friendly if possible ? I'll have in the 300lb open spring pressure so it needs to be Tough. I'll drive 2-3K a year. Would like to get 40-50k on the springs and chain?

[t money]

Have not read all the posts so this may have been said I have 2 sets of Pontiac 3/4 link chains with MORSE chains made in Mexico Ponyakr your like a detective when it comes to this stuff. PS if any body interested I will sell them 25 plus shipping

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by t money

Have not read all the posts so this may have been said I have 2 sets of Pontiac 3/4 link chains with MORSE chains made in Mexico Ponyakr your like a detective when it comes to this stuff. PS if any body interested I will sell them 25 plus shipping

Curious how old are these (good deal for someone BTW)?

Still not clear if BorgWarner Morse is still making (or at least spec'ing/branding) this style chain.

Are the chains marked "Mexico" or the boxes?

[t money]

Sorry people just reading my post I’m not selling both timing sets for 25 selling 25 ea plus shipping. Sorry again. The made in Mexico is on the dark black link of the chain and Morse is stamped every 8 links or so. Age not super old I say a couple years old but don’t really remember

[Cliff R]

Here are the last two sets I have on the shelf. The darker set came from the Cloyes box, the lighter one from the Cylent.

It's difficult to find these early style Cloyes with the heat treated metal sprockets. By now most will be the cast iron sprockets with the three cut-outs no matter who is selling them.......Cliff

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Here are the last two sets I have on the shelf. The darker set came from the Cloyes box, the lighter one from the Cylent.

It's difficult to find these early style Cloyes with the heat treated metal sprockets. By now most will be the cast iron sprockets with the three cut-outs no matter who is selling them.......Cliff

Those are obviously 2 completely different cam sprockets, since one has 10 smaller holes & the other has 8 larger holes.

Most all the 3-slot sprockets I've seen in ads have the letters SA on 'em. So, I assume that those sprockets are made by S.A. Gear.

So, are there any markings on either of your cam sprockets that would indicate who made 'em ?

[ponyakr]

"...3/4 link chains with MORSE chains made in Mexico ..."

So, are ALL MORSE chains now made in Mexico ?

Can we assume that the made in Mexico chains might be of less quality, & therefore subject to failure/problems, just as there were problems caused by made in Mexico lifters ?

Seeing 2 more chains stamped MORSE, still brings to my mind the chain in the Spotts Ebay listing, where he says it' a MORSE chain. It doesn't look anything like any other chain I've ever seen in a Pontiac timing set.

So, ya'll take another look at that chain. Has anybody here ever seen a chain like this up close ? If so, what markings were on it ?

Just tried to pull up the Spotts ad. It says 2 were sold--none available. So, I suppose his MORSE chain will remain a mystery, at least for the time being. But, you can still see a close-up of that chain & clearly see that the outer links are completely different from the outer links on all other Pontiac chains I've been able to find, online. They're a completely different shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...p2047675.l2557

The only chain I've seen that looks like that is called HY-VO chain. There is a close up pic at this link.

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/...ctric-vehicles

http://chain-guide.com/applications/...oth-chain.html

Found this Ford Racing set that uses the HY-VO chain.

https://www.amazon.com/Ford-Racing-M.../dp/B003TPKW6U

https://www.ebay.com/i/273374680646?...BoCiPsQAvD_BwE

[OG68]

If you look at the bottom of the Spotts ad;

Can be used for any Pontiac camshaft applications - but not recomended for Performance applications.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by OG68

If you look at the bottom of the Spotts ad;

Can be used for any Pontiac camshaft applications - but not recomended for Performance applications.

Too late ! Lots of us have been using these type sets in street & strip cars, for a long time.

But hey, if you got a high rpm engine which uses a roller cam with high spring pressures, you might wanna invest in one of the high dollar true roller sets with billet gears & super duper chain.

Here's a quote about HY-VO chain. Have no idea if there is a way to order this type chain for a stock type Pontiac timing set, or not.

"...The HY-VO chain was developed by Morse and is relatively new for use in timing drives. It possesses features similar to the butt-link style, especially in the manner it engages the sprockets and its ability to reduce chordal action. In addition, the HY-VO chain has a stronger link design and is able to withstand the higher load of more aggressive camshaft profiles and valve spring pressures..."

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

...

Can we assume that the made in Mexico chains might be of less quality, & therefore subject to failure/problems, just as there were problems caused by made in Mexico lifters ?

I would say "no" on that assumption. Really depends on how Morse manages(d) their supply chain. If their specs were complete to begin with and if their supply chain management forced conformance, there should be no change in quality!

Odds of that happening? I dunno… I've never worked in the aftermarket automotive industry but if the Morse brand is on them, they have to care at some level.

[Cliff R]

"So, are there any markings on either of your cam sprockets that would indicate who made 'em ?"


No manufacturers markings that I can find.....but I will say they are very well made parts. Way back then obviously there were multiple sources for them. These days I'm betting about all that's left is one source and all we are going to be able to get no matter who's label it's sold under will be the iron sprockets with the three cut-outs in the top one. Those don't scare me in the least and I'd use one if nothing else was available.

I would also use the heat treated gears over and over if needed just replacing the chain each time the engine is freshened-up. The set that is on my current engine showed nothing more that witness marks on it when I had the timing cover off recently to replace the gaskets. I wouldn't hesitate to use those gears over either with a new chain on them......Cliff

[Shiny]

I interpreted the thread topic as how to get the best possible quality chain in a low-end replacement set (my definition is < $40).

Gears (sprockets actually) are not likely to be the weakest link (no pun intended) and I suggest the durabilty (resistance to wear, "stretch", fatigue, and overstress fracture over a reasonable life) is still all about the chain.

I personally think the question of variations in sprocket/gear quality is less important (but yes, the unobtainable hardened teeth would be more resistant to wear) and honestly, there seems to be only one or two current manufacturers so it's a moot point. At least SA Gear puts their name on theirs.

Perception (at least mine) is a chain marked "Morse" will be superior to others and/or those unbranded. I think this stems from a belief that Morse would continue to deliver a durable chain for 50 years. True? Who knows?

So far, Morse-branded chains are sporadically available through eBay (old stock sold under multiple brands that no longer exist) and possibly with bundled sets from aftermarket sellers.

I may have missed it, but has anyone found a current source for a standalone "guaranteed" Morse-branded chain?

Those commonly available appear to be unbranded. Lower quality? No facts yet..

Me personally - I like buying a branded part even if I have no facts saying it's better than unbranded.