[LPI]

Thanks Lil Jack. Maybe we can convert you... I am sure Brian has tried (LOL)

For the Vortech system we use an off the shelf Ford V8/V10 truck tensioner arm for the dynamic tensioner and then we use a fixed tension pulley up by the supercharger to increase the belt wrap on the supercharger pulley. I will upload some pictures as soon as I can get them off the camera.

Currently to date the Procharger brackets use a cog belt for the drive belt. We wanted to verify the design and part integrity of the serpentine drive used in the Vortech system first before we started designing serpentine drives for the Procharger brackets.

We will be taking the data that we learned on the Vortech setup and design this same type of tensioner system into the Procharger style mount that we currently have for the cog belt drive.

So far what we have learned is the drivers side mount is more "user friendly". There are a lot of dynamics going on in regards to belt harmonics, crankshaft loads and packaging space in the different body styles that we will be concentrating on the drivers side mount but will work with anyone that wants a passenger side mount. Belive it or not but those two little AC bosses on the head cause a lot of problems on the PS.

We currently have on the design table the layout for a DS mount with a DS high mount alternator and a DS low mount power steering pump thus allowing the PS for air conditioning or air/water intercooler mounting. Again keeping with the "tradional" Pontiac accessories placement.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The supercharger, inter-cooler, and mounting brackets will never know the difference, LOL (:>)

Sounds like a great project.

Try and plan for a Victory EFI type intake, a low height T/B, and either the CSU or Extreme Bonnet.

http://www.superiorairflow.com/

http://www.csucarbs.com/airbon.html

Personally I think a low height dominator type TB and a Victor Dominator would be the hot deal.

Tom Vaught

ps The cam did have a 4-7 swap.

Already have the FI, Victor intake and Dominator throttle body. The kit I have doesnt fit real well so I have it flip around and started lating out the brackets. But now that I see Luhn provides a much better looking set up I might just buy instead of build. I dont like seeing the pulley mounted way out in front of the H-B like the kit I have. Plus teh head unit hits my fabricated valve covers.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by LPI

The engine is as follows:

Block: 1968 "YC" 400 2 bolt main with ARP main and head studs
Bore: 4.155
Stroke: 4.210
Rods: 6.80"

Cylinder heads: 2nd design E-heads 314 cfm Intake, 224 cfm Exhaust

Compression ratio: SCR = 9.020 DCR = 6.452

Camshaft: Hydraulic roller 240/250 w/110 ICL (dual spring 160/320)

Intake: Torker II

Carb: 750 Holley

Supercharger: Vortech T-trim (3.0"/8.0" 10 rib pulleys)

We are very pleased with the performance of the Vortech bracket kit and the serpentine drive.

The physical size of a D1SC and a PISC ATI isnt that much. Will your brackets work with just a different bolt pattern? I would like to possibly upgrade the head unit later and was hoping you would be able to provide the bracket with two different sets of holes if they could be clocked differently?

Nice looking set up on your webpage.

[bad69bird]

jdw,

Give him a call. I believe that the is still out of town. I can call him and find out when he will be home if you like?

[BruceWilkie]

Do the Vortech's have any kind of over run system so the belt and internal drive wont get so loaded at the shifts?

If not an external drive could be made to have two pulleys on one shaft with one of the pulleys containing one way bearings(sprague) on the driven shaft. Save a bunch of stress on the belt. Cog belt at light tension would be easier on the blowers input shaft bearing as well as tension on the crank snout would be greatly reduced. (vs v belt or serpentine) (slip the drive not the belt!)

I've got 30+ years experience with all kinds of belt driven devices mostly in a production environment. One way bearings and toothed belts have solved a lot of problems in a lot of applications. Especially where speeds change rather suddenly. I've seen millions of cycles with over 100 speed changes a minute, go 24/7 for months with no maintenance. When they first do finally start acting up usually a simple clean and re-lube will go near the same cycles.

PM me for more info.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by bad69bird

jdw,

Give him a call. I believe that the is still out of town. I can call him and find out when he will be home if you like?

Thanks for the offer, I'll call him sometime this week. I really want to turn my head unit around so I can get the pulley really close to the crank snout though.

In one of his pictures on the website it looks like the pulley covers the H-B or there isnt one on that motor. How far does your pulley stick out from the H-B?

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Do the Vortech's have any kind of over run system so the belt and internal drive wont get so loaded at the shifts?

If not an external drive could be made to have two pulleys on one shaft with one of the pulleys containing one way bearings(sprague) on the driven shaft. Save a bunch of stress on the belt. Cog belt at light tension would be easier on the blowers input shaft bearing as well as tension on the crank snout would be greatly reduced. (vs v belt or serpentine) (slip the drive not the belt!)

I've got 30+ years experience with all kinds of belt driven devices mostly in a production environment. One way bearings and toothed belts have solved a lot of problems in a lot of applications. Especially where speeds change rather suddenly. I've seen millions of cycles with over 100 speed changes a minute, go 24/7 for months with no maintenance. When they first do finally start acting up usually a simple clean and re-lube will go near the same cycles.

PM me for more info.

Wouldnt the spring loaded tension take some of the shock out of the belt?

[bad69bird]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

Thanks for the offer, I'll call him sometime this week. I really want to turn my head unit around so I can get the pulley really close to the crank snout though.

In one of his pictures on the website it looks like the pulley covers the H-B or there isnt one on that motor. How far does your pulley stick out from the H-B?

ok...no problem. Not that far with the pulley. I'd have to measure it thou. I have my H-B, crank trigger , then the crank pulley.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

Wouldnt the spring loaded tension take some of the shock out of the belt?

The blower is moving pretty fast at say 6000 engine rpm the impeller might be doing 35000+ rpm. When you shift and rpm drops to say 4500 two things occur. 1 inertia of the moving impeller is high. Its going to want to keep going. 2 there is a boost spike putting additional back load on the belt.(main reason for using a blow-off valve). Spring loading and belt slip is hard on belts and bearings. An overrun clutch in the unit or in the belt drive can eliminate belt slip and if you then use a toothed belt it requires far less tension removing unneeded side loads on the crank snout and the unit. With an overrun device when the car is shifted the unit free wheels till engine speed catches back up to the unit(which has only slowed a little). The action of one way bearings lock on the shaft in one direction and free spin the opposite direction. Very easy to make an overrun clutch that way.

[LPI]

I have attached the dyno sheet as a PDF file.

The centerline of the 10 rib serpentine belt crank pulley is 3/4" (.735") from the front face of the harmonic balancer and the crank pulley over hangs the HB by 1/8" (.110").

Thanks for the comments Bruce and the offer. Great info and insight on the pulley speed and the over run clutches. The over run protection is the BOV on this system. If the BOV sees a vacuum signal it will open and allow the blower to remain at speed thus decreasing the strain on the belt, shaft and pulleys.

The cog belts as Bruce mentioned do not put as much load on the crank due to less tension needed and so they generally stick out further then a serpentine application.

We are back in the office and I will get some pictures up of the motor when time permits.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Do the Vortech's have any kind of over run system so the belt and internal drive wont get so loaded at the shifts?

If not an external drive could be made to have two pulleys on one shaft with one of the pulleys containing one way bearings(sprague) on the driven shaft. Save a bunch of stress on the belt. Cog belt at light tension would be easier on the blowers input shaft bearing as well as tension on the crank snout would be greatly reduced. (vs v belt or serpentine) (slip the drive not the belt!)

I've got 30+ years experience with all kinds of belt driven devices mostly in a production environment. One way bearings and toothed belts have solved a lot of problems in a lot of applications. Especially where speeds change rather suddenly. I've seen millions of cycles with over 100 speed changes a minute, go 24/7 for months with no maintenance. When they first do finally start acting up usually a simple clean and re-lube will go near the same cycles.

PM me for more info.

You should talk to the ATI guys, they are on generation #3 of their overrunning bearing deal and are still having issues. Can't make them live.

We had no issues Bruce with the S/C rpm we were running. At 5300 engine rpm the Vortech S/C was turning 58,000 rpm, (not 35,000 rpm) and we still have a 6,000 rpm cushion on the supercharger rated rpm.

Tom Vaught

The a/f ratios on Mark's PGF file are not exactly correct so do not pay too much attention to them. The sensor on the dyno print-out had a bias. We were using a different a/f sensor mounted in the dyno cell to record actual a/f ratios.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You should talk to the ATI guys, they are on generation #3 of their overrunning bearing deal and are still having issues. Can't make them live.

We had no issues Bruce with the S/C rpm we were running. At 5300 engine rpm the Vortech S/C was turning 58,000 rpm, (not 35,000 rpm) and we still have a 6,000 rpm cushion on the supercharger rated rpm.

Tom Vaught

The a/f ratios on Mark's PGF file are not exactly correct so do not pay too much attention to them. The sensor on the dyno print-out had a bias. We were using a different a/f sensor mounted in the dyno cell to record actual a/f ratios.

I'd have to see what they are using and where. If internal to the unit I can envision a few possibilities. Ive seen the one way bearings lock/unlock at some amazing cycle rates but also have seen issues with shafts causing problems . Things like shaft diameter and surface finish. Shiny smooth chrome-like finish usually gave a problem like intermittant slip when they should engage but field fixed by scuffing them lightly parralel to the shaft. Hard stainless steel with a satiny finish was fine but when factory tried to cost cut with chromed or blued shafts they didnt work out as well and they would end up using the better more costly shaft. I've seen a few high temp related issues but that was built up from nearby heat source(150+c) not adequately isolated from the bearings or shafts and basically the lube either disappeared or gummed up.

[LPI]

Here is a picture of the motor on the dyno stand.

[wrench]

That looks very very nice. The day you have a serpentine set up for my F1R Procharger, I will buy it. I bought my Procharger as a bolt on kit. At first it had no spring tensioner incorporated and wouldn't make 4lbs without slipping. I added a spring tensioner (12 rib) and braced the brackets the best I could. It is still to weak and unstable at higher RPM/boost levels. Do you have any idea when this kit will be available? If not by the spring, I may have to use your cog belt kit. I was told the cog belt is not great for a street/strip car. What is your opinion on this?

[mysticmissle]

in the picture of motor on dyno what is white box after regulator? some sort of digital flow meter?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by wrench

That looks very very nice. The day you have a serpentine set up for my F1R Procharger, I will buy it. I bought my Procharger as a bolt on kit. At first it had no spring tensioner incorporated and wouldn't make 4lbs without slipping. I added a spring tensioner (12 rib) and braced the brackets the best I could. It is still to weak and unstable at higher RPM/boost levels. Do you have any idea when this kit will be available? If not by the spring, I may have to use your cog belt kit. I was told the cog belt is not great for a street/strip car. What is your opinion on this?

Doing a F1R serpentine set-up would not be that difficult as Luhn has the bolt pattern/ center of pulley shaft for the Procharger stuff and he
already knows the same info for the Vortech brackets in the photo.

THERE WAS VIRTUALLY NO SLIPPAGE ON THE DYNO TESTING with the current Luhn Brackets using the Vortech Supercharger and a 10 rib belt. Sounds like Luhn can do some engineering for you and get you away from the issues you currently have with your "Bolt On Kit". I would agree that the belt slippage issues were, as you mentioned, from a weak, unstable bracket system vs the 12 rib belt as we were using a belt with 2 less ribs ) and, as mentioned above, had no issues. Ford "Renegade Class" cars have to run a 10 rib and seem to be winning.


[QUOTE=mysticmissle; in the picture of motor on dyno what is white box after regulator? some sort of digital flow meter? [/QUOTE]

Yep, it is a High Flow "Rotary Vane" Fuel Flow Meter for the dyno.

Tom Vaught

[LPI]

Jeff -
Yes that is a flow meter that Steve and Kyle have setup on the dyno cell.

The Procharger serpentine drive setup is in the mockup stages. We will keep you posted as progress continues. It will be ready by spring if not sooner.

[wrench]

Originally Posted by LPI

The Procharger serpentine drive setup is in the mockup stages. We will keep you posted as progress continues. It will be ready by spring if not sooner.

Thanks Santa!!

[70 bird]

fwiw. I have over 10k street miles on my ford with a vortech t-trim and cog pulleys. I have always read that street driving is not good for a blower with cogs but Ive never had any problems. And Im using a tremec 3550 5-speed, a stick is supposed to make the problems worse. I think the blowers are made very tough I have beat the snot out of this thing for 4 years. I agree that a good bov is very important!

[Don Keefe]

That was a really fun project and the article will appear in the April, 2010 issue of HPP, which should be out in about six weeks. The engine was very impressive, the workmanship on the mounting assembly was superb and it really delivered. The fact that the engine actually made more horsepower than the blower was rated for (825) shows that the combination was on the money. Congratulations and thanks to Luhn Performance, Tom Vaught, as well as Steve and Kyle from New Era Racecraft for a job well done.