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#101
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So to discuss the transmission kickdown testing requires a little back story... I have, in the last 20 years, had NUMEROUS induction set ups on this car. Every common 4 barrel(Holley, AFB, quadrajet, and even a Demon), a Tri Power, dual AFB's on a Wenzler tunnel ram, factory manifolds, Performer, RPM, Torker II, Victor, Street Dominator for intakes. I have a BOX of switch mounts for mounting a microswitch to trigger the kickdown. I've spent many hours, fabricating, fitting, and wiring for all the different configurations. Hopefully this helps with understanding how happy I am that I could take a micro relay, wire it in the normal way, except the ground is an output(already built in and ready to go) from the ECU and I'm done! Its configurable, in my case I used >75% tps, and >80kpa as my set point. I used the torque converter lock up channel for this, but there are numerous available, and parameters available that are only rivaled by your creativity. Maybe I'm easily amused, but this was a really nice feature to me. And it worked as it was intended. If I ever get to add a 4l80e like I'd like, then I'll move it to a different channel, which is one wire, and a few key strokes...
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#102
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Today's update is about adding pressure sensors, with a side of learn from my mistakes regarding planning. Conventional pressure sensors use 3 wires, 5vref, sensor return(ground but to a specific ground channel) and signal out(goes to individual analog in channels of the ecu). No big deal, easy enough. However, when you think about it, the tps already uses 5vref, and sensor return, the coolant sensor uses sensor return, the iat sensor uses sensor return, etc. so forth and so on. So I'm getting ready to wire the pressure sensor, and I think to myself, there's no telling how many more sensors I may add, how many times do I wanna splice into 5vref, and sensor return...? So, I did what I should've done in the beginning, but my inexperience prevented me from recognizing it. I cut into the 5vref, and sensor return, soldered in some extra wire(I saved the excess original from everything so it matches up), and made a junction for these two circuits. Now when I add another sensor, 2 of the 3 wires will run to the common point. Jegs is the only place I can find these type junction blocks, I wish I knew another source, as these are bigger than neccessary for very light circuits, but it works... Just to be clear, there are numerous sensor return wires, and several 5vref with my ecu, I could've run individual wires, but what a snakes nest... Hopefully this will be helpful to someone. In the picture, the left terminal with black leads is sensor return, the right in gray(original MS 5vref)/red, 5vref.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#103
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So it works... Reads fuel pressure on the Tunerstudio gauge(after much fiddling, due to my poor computer skills), and also logs pressure in the Megalog viewer. I have difficulty building the gauges. Nothing wrong with any of the hardware or software, all to do with the operator... So I get a C for planning, an A for wiring/plumbing, and a D for gauge building... Those of you with strong computer skills will have an easier time with it. I feel safe now going to the track or dyno, whichever opportunity presents itself first. I'll be able to keep track of my fuel pressure while I'm tuning on the high load areas now. Will probably add a line for oil pressure too, just because I can. Did I mention this data logging stuff is really cool?!
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 Last edited by Scott65; 08-04-2019 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Spelling |
#104
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Awesome stuff mate! Oil pressure is a good one to log because you can set up a warning output if it falls under the defined threshold at a certain RPM point. I just glued a Piezo buzzer inside my ECU case and have one of the outputs trigger that as it only pulls a few milli-amp. Next thing you'll have a sensor on the back of your front wheel studs with traction control setup soon
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'71 Holden HQ Monaro - 3850lbs race weight, 400c/i - 11.4 @ 120 '66 Pontiac GTO - 389, 4 speed street cruiser |
#105
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I am working towards the speed sensor for sure. I found the housing, and driven gear for my factory speedo, I've been looking for a 16 tooth drive gear. If I could find that, I could use the autometer device you mentioned Kris. There's several things I'd like to use a vss for, traction control being one for sure. I may just work towards getting wheel sensors front and rear... Honestly, the speedo drive gear might still be in there, I can't remember anymore. And it's too hot right now to deal with tearing it all apart, especially when I haven't located one and it ends up not being there... Everything in time I reckon.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#106
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Wow, you're making some great progress!
Is the fuel sensor one of the S/S ebay specials?
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John IG: @crawdaddycustoms YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK9...Nc_lk1Q/videos |
#107
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It's an Autex brand. And yes it came from ebay, could also get it from Amazon.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#108
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So today I experimented with injector timing. Gathering the info was tricky, but the actual changing it is simple, keyboard stuff. Theory is to have the squirt in before the intake valve opens. Had to find cam specs, which was tricky cause I don't have the cam card... But I figured out that 312 degrees was the event timing(@.006). This comes from MS using 360 degrees as the beginning of the intake stroke, and your cam specs. Before tdc numbers on the card would be earlier than 360, etc. Gonna link a good video of a guy who's pretty sharp on this stuff. Sometimes he gets way over my head, but this one was understandable to me... My testing was not super conclusive, probably due to me being a novice... I tried moving it from 360 which is default, in 10 and 20 degree intervals, to 312 degrees. I may need to try a little earlier, as that is an @.006 number which means technically the valve has started to open... I checked for differences in map, temp, and pulse width. I did notice it was a little richer, and maybe a little cooler. Nothing conclusive to me, yet. But I'm gonna drive it(it started raining today) and log it and compare it to previous. Theoretically, if it went richer, that means I can pull fuel in the ve table to achieve the same afr, and that means better efficiency. Keep in mind, I'm new to this so don't take my conclusions as gospel or anything... But it is interesting, and fun to try to learn it.
Link to video:https://youtu.be/DLcsaLWKZMk Edited to add: most people say that this timing isn't super critical. Probably most critical for emissions type reasons. But its interesting, and its adjustable, so why not...
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 Last edited by Scott65; 08-16-2019 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Addition |
#109
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So, I finally got a chance to test drive the changes I made to injector timing. The difference in response is noticeably better. Engine responds quicker to a stab of the throttle, revs faster, and runs smoother, and a touch cooler. Made a wide open low gear blast, and it was great. Instantaneous response, and I almost over-revved the engine before the shift point. It happens quicker now. There may be some more benefit to advancing it a touch more, but not without a way to quantify it further. Dyno, or track runs. On a side note my new helmet came yesterday. When the weather turns decent, I'm gonna go and at least tune wide open full load. Gonna need to start over on traction too, since I've made changes and am running on drag radials now. Should be interesting.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#110
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So, I have to report another mistake on my part... This injector timing stuff works differently than what I thought. So I need to make a correction. MS works off of a 720 engine cycle, presumably because of ignition timing being related to tdc compression, and injection timing being related to tdc intake. So when I changed it, I should have changed it to 408, instead of 312. The fact that the seat of the pants seemed to say it was better kind of proves the idea that within reason, it doesn't matter that much... But I didn't want to have inaccurate information posted in the event someone tries to use this.... I did change to the correct numbers, and it did have an effect, I'm hesitant at this point to try and quantify it. Think I'll wait til I put it on the track or dyno for that. I will say the car is running great and managing the 100 degree Texas heat better than ever.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#111
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An update, a partial one anyway, I had to make adjustments to my cam sync. I've had the occasional cam fault, which is essentially a failure to sync causing the injectors to run in batch mode, and the coils to fire wasted COP. The cause was too much clearance between the sensor and the half moon. I decreased the clearance by .015, and it now syncs consistently. I ended up with ~.017 with the distributor shaft in its "down position" end play is .018, so clearance is ~.035 in "up position ". This sensors ideal usage would not be reading a flat face, but rather a gear tooth. However, with tighter clearance it works well. And is an exact match to my crank sensor, so in a bind I would be able to take it to that position and not be stranded. Just wanted to share for any who may be making cam syncs. I considered going to a purpose made cam sync, but the only Pontiac one I'm aware of has almost doubled in price, so it's a big no go for me. I'll be sticking with my homemade one. I may try to engineer another alternative that will read radially in the future.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott65 For This Useful Post: | ||
#112
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I was reminded by another thread that I haven't updated this in a bit... The biggest, and most needed thing I've done is clean up the wiring. When I started this project, I wasn't even sure I could make it work, due to my skillset being mechanical, and not electrical or computers... So I left all the wiring long, and just hooked everything up as I understood it, crossed my fingers.... and low and behold it did work. About that time summer in Texas arrived and my interest in sweating under the dash standing on my head waned significantly. So I coiled everything up in the corner, and drove, and tuned. I finally took care of that mess. I'll include a before and after pic for better understanding. The other thing is I've added an oil pressure sensor to be able to log it, and to make use of the safety feature. You set the parameters, and if pressure loss is detected, it will kill the engine. Nice feature... I did also get an ethanol content sensor installed and working. I have not yet run any E85, but will soon. Please excuse the pics, I can never get them to do what I want...
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#113
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Wow... very impressive... I will definitely be referring back to this tread when I get started with mine... I still have some time before I will be at that point though... Thank you for keeping up with the updates...
SPEED SAFE, NICK
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"The grass is not greener on the other side, its just fertilized with different $h!t" |
#114
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Wanted to post a couple of pics related to the oil pressure sensor and its function, which i had a chance to check today. I installed it at the filter housing location, partly out of convenience, and partly because it will allow me to see pressure, and DP across the filter(in conjunction with my mechanical gauge reading at the port near the distributor). Which incidentally is between 1 and 2 psi. For any of you curious, or seriously considering MS, I can share some msq files(the tune file), and some data log files. Tunerstudio and Megalog viewer can be downloaded for free(the lite version)
Sorry for the glare on the laptop screen, I couldn't see it in the frame when I took the pic. With regards to the gauge screen, its wildly configurable, for those of you with mad computer skills. Just fyi...
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 Last edited by Scott65; 04-10-2020 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Addition |
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott65 For This Useful Post: | ||
#115
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A small update, and not the one I was hoping to be giving. ( I had planned to attend a track rental Thursday night and have some performance type updates, but work interfered)
Since I installed electric fans on my car I have run them on high speed, due to only having one fan output on my ezefi I was using when I installed them(and partially due to being too lazy or indifferent to think of a way to trigger the second). So, with tons of outputs on this ecu I really didn't have any excuse, and I became curious if the low speed would really do anything here with our hot weather. So, I left my relay that MS was triggering already, took the wire from 87 to 30 on a switching relay, wired 87a to low and 87 to high off of the switching relay, ran a second output from MS to the switching relay and now I have 2 speeds from my 2 speed fan. The slightly more difficult part is the process to find the port that the programmable on/off outputs are actually tied to internal to the software, which I had to do to make an indicator for high speed ON, so you know if and when its working. But I survived that, and can probably even manage to explain it to someone else, should any of you have the need. Gonna include some screenshots for context. The first one is of "Fan Control", this is the default fan control, and in my case I let it "drive". It controls the parameters that will allow either fan to work, as it powers the switching relay. When its not commanding a signal, both fans are inoperable. The second is the programmable on/off output. It triggers high speed by parameters you set, from a large number of possible fields, connected to trigger the switching relay. I tested it this morning, and though it's not terribly hot today, it cooled with low speed, and actually cycled off, so low cools fairly well. And I already know that high will do the job if needed. Though I didn't get to see it cycle on today. Soon enough it will get hot here, and I imagine it will be called to duty, at least occasionally, if not often... Hope this makes sense, and is helpful to someone.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#116
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Not to steer this off course, but this is how I came up with controlling two fans with one output: I'd use a dedicated temp sensor (180-195* depending on what my engine liked) to provide a ground signal to the LOW speed fan relay, then use the FiTech/Summit fan output ground to trigger the HIGH speed fan relay.
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John IG: @crawdaddycustoms YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK9...Nc_lk1Q/videos Last edited by JC455; 05-26-2020 at 12:29 PM. |
#117
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Doing it this way allows both fans to run at half speed for LOW since the power is split in half between the two fans, but then both fans receive full power on HIGH.
I took this from the 98-02 Firebird wiring, since I'm using F-car rad fans on one of my Pontiacs.
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John IG: @crawdaddycustoms YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK9...Nc_lk1Q/videos |
#118
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No doubt more than one way to skin that cat. I could've done similarly with the single out put. My fans have one wire for low, and another for high, so I couldn't have run at half speed like you did.
Now with all these outputs, I don't have to add any more temp sensors. The same one can be used by I dont even know how many programmable on/ off outputs. Good for you to post it for those in that scenario.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott65 For This Useful Post: | ||
#119
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Quote:
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'71 Holden HQ Monaro - 3850lbs race weight, 400c/i - 11.4 @ 120 '66 Pontiac GTO - 389, 4 speed street cruiser |
#120
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Kris, I let fan control control the conditions same as it has been with regards to engine off function, tps, and vss. High can only function if low is on and the temp exceeds that threshold. For my particular situation, fan control kicks on low speed at 180, off at 175. High is set for >190. High cant run with engine off, because low can't. I still have to fine tune the settings when I get a chance to get it really heated up. I'm still unfamiliar with how well low speed can cool, never having used it before. But I understand what you're saying with regards to the availability of more complex conditions. The hardest part of the whole thing was figuring out the blasted port to use for the indicator!
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
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