[abefromen]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Can you ask the engine builder to swing by your home and have him listen to it? Might be better than trying to figure out what it could be. I am sure he would rather listen to it and have to pull it down than to keep running it and it blow up and do damages that you may not be able to find later and him blaming you for one thing or another and not accepting any responsibility.

He's local and does post here occasionally. I did hear from him immediately after I sent him an email about this yesterday. Asked some questions about oil pressure and few other basics.

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. Myself, I have a tendency to over react and wind up with egg on my face or both feet in my mouth.

I'm the same way especially over something like this.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The rotating assembly sounds loose to me, from what you said the clearances are too from the sound on video. If you think there is any chance exhaust leak is involved, see if you can borrow an EVAP smoke machine and smoke the exhaust system for leaks. Much less intrusive than dumping ATF or something in the carb. If you don't mind, what pistons are you using, manufacturer, type and part number would be great. Cast pistons at .005 clearance will be noisy and could break skirts down the road. Typical forged pistons at .005 may make a little noise cold but will quiet down when they heat up. If you want to do a little experiment to isolate piston slap from bearing noise, drain the oil and refill with straight weight SAE 50 oil. Start the engine. If it's bearing noise, it will be much quieter at least until it gets up to operating temp. If it piston to wall noise, there will be very little change . Sorry you are having trouble.

I have diagnosed a bearing over clearance once, with the 50w oil, successfully...

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

I have diagnosed a bearing over clearance once, with the 50w oil, successfully...

Even though I am very hesitant to run it anymore I did change the oil in it this morn and put in 20W-50.

No difference.

Checked the tightness of the Y-pipe connections at the manifolds. Both are tight and not leaking. Both manifolds are original to the engine and it ran with them before with no issues. I also inspected them closely and checked them for flatness before re-installing on the new engine. They're good.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The 461 I am doing right now calls for .004 piston to wall with Ross pistons. Instructions say if hard blocked to add another .002. My block is filled so I had it set up at .006. I expect to hear the pistons until it is warmed up. Dan told me I would. I have to add another .002 ring gap for the filled block too.
Instructions also said is spraying it to add another .002 clearance. Good thing I hate NO2.
I plan on running 15-40 or 20-50 oil.

It sounds like the OP and builder may have got their signals crossed. Hope it all works out.

Very informative and helpful to the op. Good post

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

It sounds like the OP and builder may have got their signals crossed. Hope it all works out.

It was made clear from the get-go what I wanted and what the intended use of the car was, which was extended highway use......the engine would be lucky to see over 3K RPM ever. No racing or abuse of any kind. Kinda hard to do that anyway with a 2.41 gear.

I stated quiet pistons were a must. I know cast is the way to go for quietness but today's available forged can be quiet too when set up properly. I have had engines built before with forged pistons and they were fine in terms of noise.

I am not ready to totally place blame on the excessive clearance in this case, at least not yet. But something is clearly amiss.

[mchell]

Originally Posted by abefromen

Even though I am very hesitant to run it anymore I did change the oil in it this morn and put in 20W-50.

No difference.

Checked the tightness of the Y-pipe connections at the manifolds. Both are tight and not leaking. Both manifolds are original to the engine and it ran with them before with no issues. I also inspected them closely and checked them for flatness before re-installing on the new engine. They're good.

Anything in the oil when you changed it the second time?...cut open this filter?

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by mchell

Anything in the oil when you changed it the second time?...cut open this filter?

Didn't see anything while it was draining but it's in a clean container and I'll look closer later.

Didn't cut filter open yet.

[mchell]

Originally Posted by abefromen

Didn't see anything while it was draining but it's in a clean container and I'll look closer later.

Didn't cut filter open yet.

Gotcha...

Put some of your waste oil in a black shallow pan and get some sunlight on it. Makes it easier to see artifacts...

I like to do that with the remainder of oil left in the filter after an oil change....

[chiphead]

I listened to the vid several times. I hear three noises: small exhaust leak, acceptable valve noise and a bottom end rattle.

As long as no bearing material came out in the oil filter pleats AND the oil pressure is good, I would not call for immediate teardown. Loose skirt clearance will make rattling noises and wear the rings out faster, but will not cause short term failure. It'll run fine like this as long as it doesn't get louder or make a distinct knock noise.

My old 400 had 2618 pistons with .005" clearance, and would rattle like this when cold. Those pistons would expand when hot and the noise would mostly go away. The issue here is the 4032 pistons won't expand as much, so it will always have some rattle. Running a lower water temperature will cause less cylinder expansion, so that may help quiet it down a little.

If the noise is objectionable, you'll have to tear it down and replace the pistons. Autotec pistons can be had in any bore size, so those could be used without a re-bore. My 400 block cleaned up at 4.157" with a shop plate honing it, so I used a set of Autotec 4032 with 4.1535" skirt without having to re-bore to 4.160"

[Matt Meaney]

one of the noises does sound like an exhaust leak. the others maybe something in the pan. loose, cracked, broken, windage tray and/or lower dipstick tube. baffle in the oil pan cracked, loose, oil pump pickup tube touching it. maybe the pick up tube touching the bottom of the pan. loose or cracked flex plate. as of late, I look a lot more closely at new stuff for problems that shouldn't be there because they are new, before good 'ol factory parts.
can you touch the pan or dipstick tube while it's running and feel anything? with the engine OFF and the convertor unbolted, grab the flex plate and see if it moves front to back, side to side vigorously for looseness/noise.

[abefromen]

Everything attached to the engine externally and internally with the exception of the pistons, rods,pump and balancer are factory parts original to the car. I was very meticulous with all the add on internal parts, oil pump, dip stick extension,etc, when assembling because I didn't want a problem like this after it was in.......been there done that before.

Flywheel is perfect, no windage tray, pan baffle ok, rotated the engine before pan was installed just to be sure no throws were touching anything and they were not. Oil pump pickup is 1/2" off the pan bottom.

Was under it this morn........started it up cold mid forties garage temp and it was noticeably quieter. You could barely hear the rattle/ticks although still there. Laid under the car as it warmed up and the noises slowly got progressively louder as it attained full operating temps to what you hear in the vid.

Used my stethoscope in various locations and when placed on the side of the block the rhythmic crank speed ticking can be heard vividly. There are no exhaust leaks anyplace that I can find. It all sealed and tight based on what I can see, feel and verify.

[abefromen]

Crank end play was checked before I put the pan on and it was at .003, tight but within spec.
Checked it again just now just to be sure the thrust wasn't going somewhere and even though I didn't have the dial indicator on I could tell it was the same maybe a thou more.

Taking a closer look at the original break in filter again I can see lots of very,very small silver spots.....see pic.
The oil sample shown below, shows a sample of the 20-50 I replaced the break in oil with......hard to see but it also shows very very small silver specs. Some of that on the side of the cup is lint from the rag used to clean it.

Question is, how much of this if any is normal for a new build with zero miles? Or is it bearing material? A lot of it DID stick to a magnet.

This is a HFT engine so I would think a bit of metal from the break in is normal?

[abefromen]

One more of the 20-50 after break in replacement oil.

Oil pressure is good. With the 20-50 it's actually near 30 at hot idle. Pressure isn't a problem. There is also a good amount up top looking in the oil fill hole with it running, and the lifters and rockers up top are silent.

Low lift 066 with NOS GM lifters.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by abefromen

Crank end play was checked before I put the pan on and it was at .003, tight but within spec.
Checked it again just now just to be sure the thrust wasn't going somewhere and even though I didn't have the dial indicator on I could tell it was the same maybe a thou more.

Taking a closer look at the original break in filter again I can see lots of very,very small silver spots.....see pic.
The oil sample shown below, shows a sample of the 20-50 I replaced the break in oil with......hard to see but it also shows very very small silver specs. Some of that on the side of the cup is lint from the rag used to clean it.

Question is, how much of this if any is normal for a new build with zero miles? Or is it bearing material? A lot of it DID stick to a magnet.

This is a HFT engine so I would think a bit of metal from the break in is normal?

Bearing material is of course, non-magnetic as is aluminum. Fine, light colored non-magnetic flakes (looks like metallic paint) says the bearings are being abraded somehow, possibly from sharp crankshaft oil hole edges and clearance/alignment issues. Larger non-magnetic flakes could be piston skirt wear (too much clearance) or bearing material chipped out by large burrs on the crankshaft oil hole edges. Magnetic particles could be residue from inadequate block cleanout following machining operations and can range from fine, powdery particles (boring and honing operations) to flecks from crankshaft machining embedded in oil passages and balancing reliefs.

Oil which continues to show non-magnetic "fines" after successive oil changes indicates premature bearing wear and if accompanied by piston slap, premature piston skirt wear. Continued magnetic flecks or "fines" indicates camshaft/lifter failure.

Based on the video and the metallic flecks pictured, I would say the noises are a combination of poor block and crank prep (cleaning and deburring), excessive bearing and piston clearances and a failing camshaft lobe. I would take it back to the builder pronto.

[dataway]

If that was my filter, used for break-in .... wouldn't cause me a lot of concern. If the next filter looked like that it would cause me some concern.

During break-in I put small niobium bar magnets on the oil filter case to trap magnetic particles. That way when you cut the filter open it you have mostly non-magnetic in the pleats and the metallic particles attached to the inside of the filter can. You leave the magnets on till the filter is cut open.

[mchell]

Originally Posted by abefromen

One more of the 20-50 after break in replacement oil.

Oil pressure is good. With the 20-50 it's actually near 30 at hot idle. Pressure isn't a problem. There is also a good amount up top looking in the oil fill hole with it running, and the lifters and rockers up top are silent.

Low lift 066 with NOS GM lifters.

Is it just me or is the right corner of your drain oil pan lined with material of some sort?

Poor off the top oil and see what’s hanging out on the bottom....

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by mchell

Is it just me or is the right corner of your drain oil pan lined with material of some sort?

Poor off the top oil and see what’s hanging out on the bottom....

It's actually a small measuring cup that I let some oil drip into after loosening the drain bolt. It's the only catch I could find that was black to show what was in the oil better.

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Based on the video and the metallic flecks pictured, I would say the noises are a combination of poor block and crank prep (cleaning and deburring), excessive bearing and piston clearances and a failing camshaft lobe. I would take it back to the builder pronto.

I agree with that all except I would find it hard to believe there was a cam issue not saying it isn't possible of course.

Original springs, low lift 066 and I marked the push rods and watched them all spin at the same speed thru my custom "windowed" valve covers during break in and after running at idle during a brief carb tune/idle adjustment.

[mchell]

Originally Posted by abefromen

It's actually a small measuring cup that I let some oil drip into after loosening the drain bolt. It's the only catch I could find that was black to show what was in the oil better.

Oh....well, does your small measuring cup have material settled in the bottom right corner?

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by mchell

Oh....well, does your small measuring cup have material settled in the bottom right corner?

actually yes, there was a little dark oil that first dripped out of the pan when I first loosened the plug.......after a few drips it was then regular oil that I let drip into the cup.

Not sure what was as no dark moly paste was used on the cam lobes. Some Joe Gibbs paste was used that supposedly dissolves in oil.