[mgarblik]

My advice is to take the gentle approach until that no longer has any chance of working. Keep your eye on the prize, which is a nice, quiet, great Pontiac engine. See if the engine builder will come to you and listen to it with his own ears. If this situation escalates, he may shut down and do nothing. Then a long, drawn out unhappy situation comes next. You don't get your car running properly for another year, You have to hire an attorney, You have to invest time, energy, in an emotional roller coaster that doesn't guarantee full recovery, if any. You may spend a year to get a $500.00 judgement that may take another 6 months to collect. It would be much better to have it diagnosed, repaired, and forgotten about, with a good engine under the hood. I hope you have a good outcome.

[Dick Boneske]

Sounds like a possible exhaust leak ticking, since it's louder under the engine. Maybe some lifter noise also. Does not sound like rod/piston/crank noise.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by abefromen

He's aware of the issue and hasn't offered to do anything, other than insist the pistons are not the problem.

Jim,

We need to clear a few things up here. First, we added .001” of clearance to the spec provided by the piston manufacturer. The clearance is built into the piston, the bore was honed .001” additional. I build all of my engines with additional clearance, I’ve found tight is not right. Additional noise from loose pistons don’t get louder once the engine is warm, it gets quieter.

Second, I only provided an assembled short block, no cam install, no oil pan or pump installed, the short block left my shop clean and I provided bags as it was loaded into your trunk. Some people confuse moly lube for “grit”.

When I was made aware of the apparent issue, I responded immediately. This was not via a phone call, simply emails I received. You have not asked me to come over even though we are about 30 mins from each other although you have said other have stopped by. I have offered before reading this post to come by and I’ll pull the oil pan to inspect.

This is not the first time you have questioned other people’s work, maybe you should invest into some quality tools that will allow you to confirm others work.

Let me know how I can help.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[abefromen]

It's interesting that you replied here because I never said who did the work.

No worries though. Like I said in my email to you, after it's torn down and everything measured I will update this thread with what is found be it good or bad.

[1969400HO]

Following thread:

I’m wondering what exactly it might be.
Particulate matter/debris in oil filter is something IMO that then oil passageS were NOT blown clean after machine work was done..
That debris will travel immediately in the whole engine and eat bearings in the entire system.
That is possible what incurred, the oil system was flushed with oil passage particulates and it only worsens increasingly.
Unless you find the crank thrust is somehow went bad for whatever cause.

Did the machine shop do an in-house type of break in in on a DYNO for you?
Also, verify your block oil passage to the lifters oil feed is proper “level” to the lifter oil groove as in Pontiacs this issue of misalign in lifter oil groove is serious and has somewhat the same type rattling.

[tom s]

Did you read the builder just did the short block?Tom

[moontower69]

Only 20 psi hot idle with 30 weight oil is a tad low and tells me MAYBE the bearing and other clearances (not to mention pistons) are too loose and sounds like your builder missed a bunch of opportunities to get it right. But hard to say. Change the oil again and run it around town gently. Then check oil filter for any metal. IF its clear, might be good to go.

Because from the top is sounds OK, run it without abusing it and see if you can eliminate possibility of some type of exhaust leak. Decent chance that's all it is and you'll be fine.

[chiphead]

I listened to it again with my eyes closed, so I could focus on the noise and not the video. I hear some piston slap, but I also hear a constant rattle that sounds faster than slap should be. Is there anything loose on the engine like aircleaner lid, bracket, spray paint can, wrench, etc that would be making a fast rattle? If not, it sounds like a rod bearing or small end hitting the piston pin boss.

Rods get noisier as the oil thins.

[rohrt]

Following.

My brother had a motor built and it was either the piston skirts or crank was just slightly making contact with the windage tray. It made a hell of a racket.

I was also thinking about my motor I destroyed high school. I pulled the heads and redid them in shop class. It must had crap still in the heads. I ruined every bearing in short order including the cam bearings.

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Is there anything loose on the engine like aircleaner lid, bracket, spray paint can, wrench, etc that would be making a fast rattle? If not, it sounds like a rod bearing.

Rods get noisier as the oil thins.

Nothing.
I've been over and under it ten ways to Sunday trying to cover every angle I can as far as something externally loose, leaking exhaust, etc etc and found nothing.

Had a couple friends listen to it and in their unprofessional opinion they think it's internal.

[Mr Anonymous]

That sounds 100% like a 5.7 diesel.

[65sport]

I read all the posts, and it's as clear as mud. BOTTOM LINE: You made it clear you wanted a quiet engine. Not sure whose decision it was to use forged pistons, fancy rods but obviously overkill and overkill can have unwanted results, for instance floating pins adds to overall clearances I hope he didn't hone the rod bushings for additional clearance as well. The builder should have made it CLEAR that forged pistons with extra clearance do not tend to give you what you the quiet engine you want. This is basic knowledge.

Un-milled heads, stock thickness gaskets, un-decked block IMO means the valve train should be as it was before. If the valves and seats were re-done, that will make the valves run a little tighter but very doubtful it would create a problem.

I love the body style, that is a very nice model. Is this a numbers-matching block ? Did he sonic test the block ? Is there a reason he had to go .040" and not less ? If you have to go .060" (if sonic tested for thickness) I'd for sure use either standard cast pistons or KB high silicon. I'd scrutinize the floating rod to wrist pin clearance as well, floating pins IMO for racing. If the rod bushings have too much clearance, I believe they can be re-bushed. I hope you can salvage the block, it will be interesting to see what unfolds.

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by 65sport

I love the body style, that is a very nice model. Is this a numbers-matching block ? Did he sonic test the block ? Is there a reason he had to go .040" and not less ? If you have to go .060" (if sonic tested for thickness) I'd for sure use either standard cast pistons or KB high silicon. I'd scrutinize the floating rod to wrist pin clearance as well, floating pins IMO for racing. If the rod bushings have too much clearance, I believe they can be re-bushed. I hope you can salvage the block, it will be interesting to see what unfolds.

Originally Posted by 65sport

Is this a numbers-matching block ?

Yes

Originally Posted by 65sport

Is there a reason he had to go .040" and not less ?

Piston choice wasn't available at .030.......few cylinders had a ton of taper but I believe it would have cleaned up at .030

Originally Posted by 65sport

Did he sonic test the block ?

Receipt shows it was

Originally Posted by 65sport

I hope you can salvage the block

So do I. I also prefer not to go .060 on a 557

I have nothing against forged. Had 'em before and set up correctly they were ok as far as quietness. I prefer cast but the current choices suck.

[65sport]

Well regardless of what you find when you tear it down, I'd try to get some pistons that will work with your bore as it is. Maybe call Butler for suggestions. Good luck !

[65sport]

Originally Posted by steve25

Just because the heads and or block have not been milled does not mean the base circle of the Cam your running is the same as a stocker!

True, but he did say he was running an 066 camshaft though. I would assume that the base circle would be copied same as stock but assumptions can get one in trouble so that would be something good to verify.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Revisited your vid and it just sounds like loose clearances to my ear. I know you said you used new rods but it sounds like excessive side clearance there which could account for your lower than expected oil pressure.

[Dragncar]

Wow, just wow. Bore is 4.16 and in the first post the OP states in the instructions clearance with a bore of 4.00-4.20 the clearance should be .002-.0025. Now in a 220HP "wheezer" like this, completely stock, that is what the customer wanted, a stock, quiet engine I would have put it at .002 piston to wall and .002 on the rods and .0025 on the mains and been done with it. .005 is more than DOUBLE than the low side recommendation from manufacturer. There is no reason for this engine to be on the high side for any piston to wall, main or rod clearance.
The part number given shows these pistons come with .980 pin. But full floating was used. Were the piston pin bores hand honed out to fit a .990 pin ? Is this "wrist pin" knock that will not go away like some piston slap as the engine warms up ?
Too many variables leaves room for mistakes. Its a simple as simple gets build.
Oil pan was not even painted.
Sorry for your troubles abefromen.

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Oil pan was not even painted.

That was my doing. I left it like that because the car is a 40K mile survivor all original and I didn't want the engine to look new. I wanted it to reflect the car's mileage.

I wanted the rebuilt engine to have patina.

[abefromen]

Better quality 3 minute vid at full op temp of 195

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRtv...ature=youtu.be

[mchell]

Internet troubleshooting generally sucks.

Unfortunately, the only way you’re going to get to the bottom of this is to get it out and get the pan off..

It blows when you go thru all the motions only to do it twice..... one reason I always run a new motor on the dyno... better to kill It while it’s NOT in the car.

Be interesting to see where the problem is....