[klunker]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

Basicaly when you buy it it's your & if you didn't check it out very careful it will stay your & you have no recourse to get your money back. Thats the way it was explained to me by a friend who is a laywer. Because you have to be able to prove that a person knew they were selling you a fake car. Then it becomes your word aginst the person who sold it to you ,& thats hard to do.

I think this is a reasonable expectation when buying a "old" car. Its up to you to do your due diligence on what your buying. If you place a Higher Premium on an "original" GTO then you should be the one to be sure its what you expect. If you buy and find out later its a clone, to bad, so sad, its on you. Good luck. Its interesting to note that in all the years that I have been tumbling around junkyard every GTO I find is missing its VIN tag and Cowl tag. I don't want to hear its illegal to swap vin tags, remove vin tags, its irrelevant cause it happens all the time.

What this all boils down to is the ones who put a premium on "originality" or "pedigree"" want some assurance that what they see in front of them is what they think it is. PHS is of no use in detecting a well done clone. There is nothing that can detect a well done clone short of destructive testing. Sorry, that's life, its not fair, get used to it.

Because the premium placed on originality/pedigree is what it is its profitable to do vin swaps and clones. Until the premium is gone it will continue. You either have to value the pedigree less and not be willing to pay for it or stay away from restored cars without a verifiable lineage as they are the most likely the cloned cars. Only on a car that is original enough as it sits are you safe. That means if its ever been repainted stay away.

[Tom Vaught]

This VIN deal to track stolen vehicles/parts is a weak knee deal at best.

1) Right after my 2008 vehicle was stolen, the local cops basically said the vehicle was gone for good. The insurance company said that to start looking for a new vehicle in 3 weeks "if it was not recovered before then". Well 3 weeks are up and I am "looking".

They busted a couple of Home Break-in/Car Thief experts from my favorite state Ohio (naturally) after they migrated closer to their chop shops (most likely in the Detroit area). So now the cops have 30 minutes to find the vehicle vs a hr drive for the criminals to drop off the stolen vehicle. The only way they catch these guys is if there was a cell phone/ LoJack/On-Star system on the vehicle to allow the cops to find the guys parked at the motel/ on the road to the chop shop/ or actually at the chop shop. Bet the bad boys at the chop shops have jammers for that deal.

So here we are arguing about a guy with a 49 year old vehicle who owns both cars, LEGALLY, and wants to bring the rotted our 64 GTO back to life with a better body shell. He will document the better body shell as the GTO, document the rotten POS as the donor vehicle. Both VIN numbers on the door posts will be properly attached to each shell, just like the law states AFTER THE REPAIRS. The law can scratch off the rusted out POS as being off the road for ever, the donor shell with all of the correct 64 GTO driveline (Engine Numbers, Transmission Numbers, etc will correctly match (as per law) and the repaired vehicle will continue to pay state taxes and license fees on the road. Everyone was happy, the repair was completed, the VINs for the Engine Trans/ Door Post all match and only sheet metal was repaired/modified.

Whether the whole door post or the whole dash or the whole firewall was still used with the proper Engine/Transmission/ etc is open for discussion. The Engine/ The Transmission/ The VIN Number/ etc all stayed together on a Restored Vehicle that was brought back to life. As long as Terry is honest in what he did when the car is sold, no laws were broken in my mind. Only extensive repairs (which happens often on classical vehicles.)

No different that a Human getting a new Heart, Eyes, Hips, Ankles, Fused Spine, Brain Surgery repair, Kidneys, etc. It is the SOUL of the vehicle that remains. By the way people change their names often, (Marriage, Movie Stars, other reasons. Only the Soul remains.

There will be a "grave stone" out there that says that a LeMans donated its body parts to keep a GTO alive. Whther the GTO is one door post or 10,000 parts, The records say the GTO still "Lives" and the Donor LeMans VIN was "Buried".

Crime is at an all time high for modern car thefts, no one really gives a chit if a guy tries to bring back a GTO driveline/VIN with rotted Body parts (using better body parts for HIS enjoyment.

Tom Vaught

By the way, the world is running out of VINS, even the 17 digit ones. At some point (with the Chinese building cars) there will be multiple cars out there with the same VIN.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Tom, notice it says "or" and not "and". Many older vehicles prior to the '60's were identified solely by their engine number. I have owned several, and currently own one. So if the engine is lost/changed, yes, the "VIN" of the car is lost/changed, too. No need to stamp your IA2 block....just make sure your VIN rivets look correct when the Plate Police come to check!

I do not plan on ever coming close to tampering with the Rivits or the VIN Plate and the way that it is mounted on the door post. If there ever is a need to fix my GTO (after a body damage issue), then I will become an expert on Door Post Removal and Repair, as allowed by law. I have personally LEGALLY seen it done TWICE.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

I remember a guy in our home town (in the middle of the United States) Buying several 34 Ford junkyard vehicles and going thru all of the parts and making a couple of nice DRIVER vehicles from the parts. In some cases, there was a small percentage of the cars complete body left when the car was completed. More like an "Obama" Ford (a bit of everything in the mixture). But because the VINs were never logged in as being cancelled (not common in those days or worth the effort) when he came to put the vehicles back on the road, the DMV was happy to sell his the License/etc.

This guy was Chief of Police in our home town and a former California "Hot Rod Club" member. He always said there were some nice shells sitting in farmers sheds in Missouri.

Tom Vaught

[valkyrie9901]

Were you one of them "Hayti Hustlers" were you Tom?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by valkyrie9901

Were you one of them "Hayti Hustlers" were you Tom?

I do not recognize the name. I was a poor farm kid who saved his money and bought a "B-Plan" 64 GTO Zone Car thru my Uncle.

Now the Chief of Police might have recognized that name but I do not.

Apparently there was a big car club culture in the Detroit Michigan area. I hung with a few of the "Top End?" "High End?" (whatever they were called) Guys who were not 1/4 mile track guys but were into top MPH contests. Today that stuff is like the Texas Mile stuff I did last year.

But back on Terry restoring the 64 GTO with his skills, resources, Parts as required to bring that car back to life. I have see FAR TOO MANY 64 cars of any type that were scrapped because it was easier to just pay the money and get a better car. And this was in 1966.

Good Luck Terry with your project, I hope that you continue with it.

Tom Vaught

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

No different that a Human getting a new Heart, Eyes, Hips, Ankles, Fused Spine, Brain Surgery repair, Kidneys, etc. It is the SOUL of the vehicle that remains. By the way people change their names often, (Marriage, Movie Stars, other reasons. Only the Soul remains.

After having seen Joan Rivers on TV one too many times, I will take a completely redone car over a completely redone woman any day of the week.

[valkyrie9901]

I was kidding about the Hayti Hustlers Tom. I have a few friends from Hayti Missouri area........ JB,

[Thumpin455_GTO]

What kind of guy would take something that isnt even a good parts car and rebuild it? That one is at least a good parts car, and it looks like it would probably run and drive. It takes a lunatic nutter to rebuild a car like that. $3k is a bit steep for me to start, but at least its almost entirely there.

A money maker? Probably not. A fun driver if you really wanted a 64 GTO, sure as long as you have lots of time, skills, and a place to do the work yourself. Paying someone to fix it would be a nightmare.

The dash isnt a big deal, mine was way worse and the one I repaired and put in it was worse than that one. I bet the frame is fine, cars from the south seem to rust top down. My Dave's 65 was that way, and once I broke the fasteners on the suspension loose, they unscrewed by hand. The frame was pitted but sound despite the floors being almost entirely Swiss cheese. You guys are jaded with Arizona cars or low mile survivors.

That being said. I am freaking nuts, bored, and dont mind fixing rust. I just see something I could fix when I look at the pics.

[Tom Vaught]

Terry's car doesn't look any worse "body wise" that this Texas Mile Le Mans before it was cleaned up for the Texas Mile (Rat Rod) events. The Rat Goat (Pontiac Powered) runs the mile at 179+ Mph.

http://missiongarage.com/photos.htm

Tom Vaught

[Terry Gartner]

So, after all this. Does anyone have a line on a decent body?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Head west young man
try for a Lemans vs. Tempest

or maybe even another GTO

[Bluesugar]

PM sent

[johnta1]

Apparently what you personally consider vs what Florida law allows is different, John.

I don't know Florida law (or care).
Florida has some of the worse laws around.


I know Illinois law, though.


All this doesn't really matter to me, as I'll never be buying one of these cars.

All I can say is, Buyer Beware.


All it would take is some one else complaining and then it'll be a mess.

[Tom Vaught]

Like I said it is typically a State Deal as far as enforcement and what an enthusiast/rebuilder is allowed to do. Personally I think that the car could be repaired without doing the whole Body Swap deal. I had the floors and the trunk replaced on my 64 GTO and the fenders were off the car at the time of the frame swap. There really wasn't that much of the original car to look at really. A Dash and Rear Quarters AND THE LEFT DOOR POST WITH THE UNTOUCHED VIN STILL ATTACHED TO THE BODY AND OF COURSE THE MATCHING DOOR POST ON THE OTHER SIDE).

Tom Vaught