[War eagle]

John I do not have a clue on how to do it. However if no one else comes along I will give it a shot. The W on the firewall is the "FLAGGED WANGER" ID. as on the build sheet, the paint code will be on the firewall tag. There are a dozen or so mags from that period and each seem to add a bit more to the first GTO and tests. Maybe a 'sticky' of that list would be appropriate for anyone looking for a good read.(s)

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

War Eagle, can you or somebody else post the pic from the April '64 Speed & Custom showing the better engine shot with the visible transfer lug "pyramid"?

I've been working out a time line based on what was written back in '63 & '64 vs. the recollections that were published many years later.

Lots of things that don't add up.

For example, JW said in an '89 MCR interview that he stormed into Delorean's office armed with the unfavorable review published by Hot Rod and walked out with two order blanks, implying the Blue car and Tenney's Red car resulted from those order blanks.

But Roger Proulx wrote in his article published March '64 in C & D that JW invited him to drag race a GTO that Royal had just finished prepping in OCTOBER. And it seems 100% certain he drove the same Blue car that went to C & D in NYC and on to Daytona.

The Red car Manifest shows a Date Produced of 11/2/63. The Blue car had already been bobcatted by then.

The Hot Rod mag report on the GTO appeared in their Dec '63 issue (hey Keith, your keys are laying on your copy of that mag, LOL!)

I don't think that mag would have hit the newsstands until after the Red car was already built and if Roger Proulx drove the Blue car in Oct., definitely was not out til after the Blue car had already been prepped by Royal.

The kicker is that my read of the Hot Rod review was FAVORABLE to the GTO, not the "bad press" that it was made out to be.

JW has written that the Blue car was equipped with 3.55 gears and an open diff. Clearly, if the pix are believed, this car was equipped with the Safe-T-Track locking diff.

And multiple articles published in the day starting with the Proulx article all say it had a 3.90 axle. Now I doubt that the writers/testers had any way to know what axle ratio was in the car (not indicated on the Window Sticker), so had to rely on what JW told them I would think. So do we believe what was in the articles or what was said many years later? I sure don't know, but it makes sense to me that the Blue car would have had 3.90 gears, why else tell people that it did?

JW has also claimed the testing was done with the Red car. But there is an interesting retrospective that appeared in the January '75 issue of C & D, written by David E. Davis. I bought that mag new in the infancy of my GTO obsession and still have it. David E. writes that John Jerome drove the "test car" down with his family and Wangers drove a "back-up GTO" down from Detroit. He mentions what fun they had in Daytona, at one point drove over Jerome's camera bag, busted the rear window in the rented Ford convertible, and "lunched the engine in the back-up car".

Twice in the '75 retrospective he refers to the "back-up" GTO and called the Blue car driven down by Jerome as the "test car". Why?

He took credit for writing most of the original article that was published with "help" from Jerome.

JW has said the testing at Daytona was done with the Red car. Many years after, he "admitted" the Red car went to Daytona with a 421.

But the David E. piece written in late '74, many years prior to JW's admission, seems to purposefully point to the Blue car as the car that was tested. Why call the Red car a "back-up" and mention the blown engine if it was the primary car tested in Daytona.

One further fact appearing in the original '64 C & D article. The Price as tested is given in the box with the acceleration results and technical data about the car as tested.

The Price as Tested is $3377.91. This is pretty close to what I am able to calculate for the Blue car with the options described for it in the article.

The Red car stickered for about $250-$300 more than the Blue car, not even close. If the acceleration test results were for the Red car, why was the price of the Blue car indicated?

The article does say they "ran dozens of acceleration tests on the two cars." Doesn't differentiate anywhere between the two of them, so if they saw any performance difference, it wasn't mentioned. They did talk about the difference obtained between the red line tires (higher mph) and drag slicks (lower et).

Both cars featured the Bobcat kit, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I suspect they also featured identical drivetrains. It would make sense that a "back-up" twin was there in case of a blown engine. Logically, you would not have wanted C & D to blow up the 421 car and wind up testing a 389 and reporting less impressive nos.

If the photographic evidence is clear that the engine in the Blue car was a 421, I would conclude C & D took the data it obtained from that car and reported it. No doubt, the Red car performed just as well until the motor went lame.

I believe the Blue car was built weeks ahead of the Red car. But I just don't think it was a non-VIN'd pre-production model. Calling it a "pilot" car really changes nothing, my understanding from those days, "pilot" cars were just the first very early production cars that came down the line at a snails pace while everybody learned their jobs and worked out the kinks before the line speed was sped up. But I doubt it was a "pilot" car either. Pilot production would have been long over by 9/11/63 when VIN 824P003147, one of the early Zone Announcement GTOs, was produced.

Somewhere between that VIN & the Red car VIN is likely the Blue car VIN. Sure wish Jim M. would spend the time to turn up the Manifest record for the Blue car, might at least tell us if the 3.90 axle was special ordered for it.

I love your passion for this stuff, John! And knowledge (I can only aspire to one day be "Tenney V."!). Wish I could do more to lend a hand in your quest to get to the bottom of this.

Again, I only "know" what I've read, heard and been relayed to me, fortunately, by people who were there.

And, so ...

I'm told the Red Car was purpose-built specifically for the Car and Driver test. Build dates/test dates indicate this is possible, if not likely. Particularly as it was only used in this one test, I understand.

Both Mr. Wangers and David E. have told me the red car was used for the acceleration #'s. JW stating it was purpose-built for this task. There's a pic of it in the article making a run on the Daytona straight.

It seems the blue car existed, and was used for press work/photos, earlier - as we've seen. Jim told me, and wrote in his book, that it was a pilot car, and was not built/modified in tandem with the red car.

A question I have is why lie at this point? Where's the upside?

Why would Jim finally cop to the 421 in the red car, but not the blue car. Maybe one of the reasons he admitted to the red car after all this time was because so many people had seen it up close w/their own two, and it essentially had already been "outed" for years?

But really, why then would it matter to keep the 421 in the blue car a secret? Once you're busted, who cares?


p.s. maybe Jerome's departure schedule couldn't be coordinated with that of his family, or perhaps he had stuff to tote (granted, how big's a stopwatch?!), hence the plane/rental car combo platter?

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tenney

But really, why then would it matter to keep the 421 in the blue car a secret?

Maybe this thread is a good enough reason, actually.

I was thinking it'd be great if the blue car was indeed 421-equipped, as well. Particularly in light of all of the thought, time and effort you've put into your quest, John.

But, if so, what would we be talking about ...?!

[MikeNoun]

The quote that Jim Wangers said about the 1964 GTO was:

"I was standing only 5 feet away from from whoever was holding the stopwatch, and the numbers they were coming up with were unbelievable. The car was good, but not THAT good.....they weren't even burning rubber, yet the acceleration numbers were beyond anything I could do in a GTO. But I wasn't going to stop it...."

"When they came up with a 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds, and 0 to 100 in 11.8, I knew it was time for me to shut up and watch. Our red GTO wouldn't have run from 0 to 60 in 11.8 seconds even if it had been dropped off the top of the Empire State Building."

Here's a pic from Car Life. Notice the same MFG plates (015) were used in the original GTO ad "GTO is kicking up a storm....". Also an engine shot of the same car from Car Life test.

Was this the same red car from the Car And Driver test, or another red one?

[Tenney]

[QUOTE=MikeNoun;4228027]
Was this the same red car from the Car And Driver test, or another red one?/QUOTE]

Has the underhood light. Looks like no p/b. If there's a p/s pump, it's possible. Don't see one though.

[J GLASGO]

I cant remember without looking it up,but is the code for Nocturne Blue W ?

[MikeNoun]

Yep, W is Nocturne Blue.

My old 65 GTO Coupe had a big B scrawled in crayon on the firewall. Back in the old street racing days of the 70's and 80's, no one wanted a big B on their firewall ("What's that B mean?"), so I sprayed over it when I had the engine out.

My 65 GTO was Charcoal Blue.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Here's a pic from Car Life. Notice the same MFG plates (015) were used in the original GTO ad "GTO is kicking up a storm....". Also an engine shot of the same car from Car Life test.

Was this the same red car from the Car And Driver test, or another red one?

My money says different car.

C&D '64: power antenna, spinner hubcaps, door mounted mirror

This car: no antenna, deluxe hubcaps, no mirror.

Also - just noticing that is not a Michigan M plate. California, perhaps?

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

The W on the firewall is the "FLAGGED WANGER" ID. as on the build sheet, the paint code will be on the firewall tag.

I don't think so. The red car was the one that had "Tag Wangers" on the build sheet, and has no notation on the firewall. Plus, one of the stories posed here is that the blue car was already built and procured for this activity after the fact, so it would not have been destined for Mr Wangers at the time it was going down the line.

I think we are settling on the W being the code for Nocturne Blue. You are correct: it would appear on the cowl tag, but you would not be able to read that code from very far away, especially in the dimly lit assembly plants of the day. That's why the build sheets or build manifests were usually placed in a conspicuous place - to make it easier to read and choose the correct parts. So - a big "W" on the firewall alerts workers the upcoming car is Nocturne Blue, as opposed to black, for example.

(Even today it is difficult to judge colors inside of the assembly plant, both due to the poor lighting or the difference in appearance due to the unnatural/florescent lights).

K

[J GLASGO]

Most of the GTO.s that i have done have had the color code,and interior trim code written in crayon on the firewall.Some were more obvious than others.I vote for the "w" as the color code.

[SD421]

Damn, someone please invent the time machine NOW!!!!!

[SD421]

Mr Tenney,
First off, Im very happy that you have the GTO. You understand the significance of it and it doesnt hurt that you actually saw it and rode in it back in the "day".

Question if I may.

What size headers did Schornack build for it and were they built after the 428 was put in or was the set built specifically for the motor after he(Schornack) stroked the 428 to a (474) according to Schornack's autobiography?

Can you post pics of the headers too? They seem to differ from regular headers.

Sincerely,
Don
BTW did you have the car restored and will there be an article on it?

[geeteeohguy]

Keith, while I can't make out the state on the license plate in the magazine photo, it is the right color scheme for the '63-'69 California plates. Black base with chromate yellow characters. This thread is getting more interesting by the post!!

[John V.]

Tenney, what would we be talking about? Good point, but for me the Blue car is compelling solely because the Car & Driver staff fell in love with it. I'm just curious about the motor in it 'cause I like to know the real story and partly to understand if C & D staff became enamored of the car at least in part (and perhaps in large part) because it contained a 421.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily think anybody has to be lying. When I was in my 20's, I was dismayed by older co-workers who would claim not to remember things important to our work. I was sure they were lying. Then as I got older, life/work got more complicated. And I suddenly I realized, I couldn't remember everything either. I could find memos I had written that I had no recollection of or photos of events with me in the pic that I couldn't recall attending. Stuff like that. I found that I was most likely to remember the stuff that really stood out as extraordinary. I've reminisced with old friends that I hadn't seen in decades about events that happened long ago. It always amazed me, they would remember something that involved me and I wouldn't remember it at all and vice versa. Relying only on memory just doesn't cut it. The Red car was more extraordinary to JW because of his subsequent history with it. If he's forgotten details of the Blue car, that would not surprise me in the least.

Nocturne Blue was code W. War Eagle, I believe it was common practice at the Pontiac Plant to mark the color on the firewall that way (yes, it is coded on the Data Plate too). The explanation I recall is that the line workers could look up the line as the car approached to be sure the front end sheetmetal they were preparing to install was color matched to the vehicle as it approached. A little advance notice that they weren't out of sequence. A lot easier to see the large chalked color code, couldn't tell the body color, all they could see was a black firewall approaching. And the Data Plate was much too small to serve that purpose on the line. Guys with Pontiac builds should be able to confirm this.

Mike, hard for me to say. The pic in the lower left of the ad also appeared in the "riding a tiger ad". Pretty sure the Plates on it are different and it has Deluxe Wheel Discs. Tenney's C & D Red car was built with the more expensive Custom Wheel Discs. Can you tell what Discs on the car with the MFG 015 Plates?

It could be Tenney's car. Anybody able to see any 421 clues in that engine pic? Any other nuggets in the Car Life test?

[John V.]

Ah, based on Keith's report that the MFG 015 was not the Michigan style, found this.

http://image.mustangmonthly.com/f/mi...no-subject.jpg

From Motor Trend archives at Petersen Publishing in LA. Pic of a Cal Mfg Plate on a '64 Mustang.

Same Plate style as on that GTO. Looks like that Red car was likely a Fremont build, not Tenney's.

HOWEVER, could be a stock image. Doesn't mean the engine bay shot is from the same car. Although, where was Car Life published from? If LA, more likely they acquired their test car from the LA Zone and most likely a Fremont build in all the pix.

[Tom Vaught]

Car Life car is a vacuum Tri-power set-up

Tenney's car was a 389 SD linkage Mechanical tri-power set-up.
Also this is not the pic I was referring to. The one I am referring to had the Royal guys installing the driver's side head.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Ragtop Man

To be sure, the GTO's were prepped to the nth degree, and it seems rather possible that at least one and maybe both had 421 engines, either by substitution at the Engineering Garage or at Royal. As Darksiders know, the first 421 blocks were transfer lug-less 425A 389 blocks that were simply broached an extra .250 in the mains for the larger crankshaft; a simple overbore provides the rest of the displacement. Recall also that Smokey was cutting down 421 cranks to 3.00" in '62, well before the hot shoes from C/D uncorked the test cars.

That is true but the 421 engine in the pictures I saw and have somewhere had a transfer lug. Also 64 GTO and 421 HO blocks have a block mounted starter I believe whereas a 62 engine could not mount a starter without using a bell-housing starter mount.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Mr Tenney,
First off, Im very happy that you have the GTO. You understand the significance of it and it doesnt hurt that you actually saw it and rode in it back in the "day".

Question if I may.

What size headers did Schornack build for it and were they built after the 428 was put in or was the set built specifically for the motor after he(Schornack) stroked the 428 to a (474) according to Schornack's autobiography?

Can you post pics of the headers too? They seem to differ from regular headers.

Sincerely,
Don
BTW did you have the car restored and will there be an article on it?

Thanks, Don!

Not sure the diameter of the headers, they're boxed up in the garage, but will check. Also uncertain re: when they were built.

Mr. Wangers said the car never had headers while it was with him, though (birth, thru end of August '64).

Yes, the car was cleaned-up and returned to Car and Driver specification by Scott Tiemann while I was looking after it. Paul Zazarine did an excellent write-up on this in the 12/08 issue of Muscle Car Enthusiast.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

but for me the Blue car is compelling solely because the Car & Driver staff fell in love with it.

I've flipped through that write-up once or twice, too. Could it be they kinda thought both cars were okay?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Question if I may.

What size headers did Schornack build for it and were they built after the 428 was put in or was the set built specifically for the motor after he(Schornack) stroked the 428 to a (474) according to Schornack's autobiography?

Can you post pics of the headers too? They seem to differ from regular headers.

Sincerely,
Don
BTW did you have the car restored and will there be an article on it?

A little story for the members.

I built my car (the 11.55 car) some months before Milt was building the Sherman car. Greg Scharding was helping him with the car. I drove my GTO to the Spring Dust-off at Pontiac Headquarters in Pontiac, Michigan. Dimitrie Toth used to have his 421 SD car there every year and would fire it up with the "dumps" open to get attention.

I had quick disconnect Marmon flanges right after my headers so I dropped the exhaust too and we had a little noise contest. His McKeller #10 camshaft did not sound that great compared to the Comp Cam 255/265 @ .050 .600 lift in mine. The people left Dimitrie Toth's car and came over to see mine.

Milt S was one of the people.

He crawled under the car, over the car, sat in the seat, revved the engine, HE WAS INTERESTED. The exhaust headers were "D-port" to "Round port" adaptor 2" tube JR racing headers with flat collectors.

The front tube went under the front engine cross-member and the rear tube wrapped over the frame.

So I see Milt's car and it is set up similar to mine except he has the front tube go up over the other tubes and then down to the collector vs under the frame. I believe he also used round 4 tube collectors vs my slip-on flat collectors. You can see in Tenney's picture what I mean about the front tube going up.

So I would say that his headers were:
1) Custom front tube headers (similar to jR headers but CUSTOM)
2) 2" diameter pipes
3) Used a adaptor flange to go to the 716 casting heads ported by "Birdie" (The tripower intake was also extensively reworked by "Birdie"

Looking at tenney's pic you can see the 4 bolt adaptor flanges for the center header exhaust ports to the adaptor flange bolted to the head.

Tom Vaught