[dennis kirban]

There is some interesting stories surrounding some of the very early GTO reproductions and how they came about. I figured before I get much older and can't recall things I would share some of these stories. Old timers this will be like a trip down memory lane as I add to this from time to time.

Course we welcome any comments or photos. I will have a good friend of mine post some photos as it progresses.

I never started out to be in the "GTO" reproduction game originally but lead up to it by buying mostly GTOs and high Performance Mopars during the 1970s gas crisis. Having a successful towing business also helped as it enabled me to find them and pick them up.

At the time we lived about 20 minutes from Hurst and my wife even worked there in 1969-1970 driving our 1964 GTO to work. So you can see how things would later evolve.

At first I stuck with 1964-1967 GTOs only as the 1968-72 where still fairly new and I never thought they would have much value. (I changed this thinking later on). At the same time I started to buy dead ones and having a local gas station that was keeping our tow trucks on the road disassemble the dead ones for parts.

I still remember the first 1966 GTO we took apart it had what I thought was aftermarket plastic red fender liners. I left them on the car. Never any wiser back then.

I remember the very first ram air IV block I came across. A local body shop that did the townships towing had this 1966 GTO for years sitting in their yard. I made a deal to buy it.

Upon removing the aftermarket headers I discovered the exhaust ports were round (different) from what I had seen. I ran the numbers on the heads and the block...and it was like hitting the lottery...ram air IV heads and block.

I remember buying a junk 1964 Lemans simply because it had the highly desirable plastic wood wheel. That steering wheel even back in the early days was always very sought after and brought more money compared to the later ones. Even back then it was a few hundred dollars.

We had some rare GTOs back then. I wish I had been smart enough to hide a business card in them and kept records of VIN numbers. Most were never titled in my name.

I recall one 1966 example black on black original paint tri-power 4 speed the real deal. What made this even more appealing is the car had a mint set of Hurst wheels on it.

I am sure I sold it for about 1/3 of what the wheels alone today would bring. No idea where that car is today.

Another comes to mind a blue 1965 GTO convertible tri-power 4 speed bought that off guy names Evans.....his brother is Chubby Checker of Twist fame....

This background would lead to selling parts and the realization that if business was to continue that parts would have to be reproduced in order to continue to make a living at this.

In those early days the GTO national club was just starting (my membership is 44) I saw small blurb in a Hot Rod magazine.

The very early companies on a national level that I started to deal with was Ames Performance Bobs Pontiac Parts, Year One and Bethels Goat Farm. Bethels by far had the great situation for cars to sell and parts. Great climate compared to the east coast.

I know others were also starting out but these were the main ones that I was starting to deal with. Bobs Pontiac made his mark with getting various decals made ones you probably take for granite today the trunk directions fan etc and so on. All that required a lot of research back then since no books were being done yet on restoration.

This was basically the start as to what has evolved today.

More to come

Comments welcomed.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[John V.]

Dennis, what year did you get started? I bought my first '64 GTO, 1 owner convert from a young dentist summer '73 in Phila. I don't remember when I 1st saw your name but I started latching onto anything associated with the GTO, especially the '64, right from that moment. I was 18 and I don't recall knowing anything at all about GTOs until I bought mine. I bought it because my sister wrecked my '63 Fury hardtop (w/ 361) and I needed a car. My dad subscribed to SIA at the time and they had just published an article on "future" collectible cars, cars from the '50s and '60s that could still be had for cheap. When I suddenly needed a "new" car, I was determined to buy a car on that list and it had to be a convertible. And cheap to fit my budget. As luck would have it, the '64 GTO convert was in the Phila Inquirer and I bought it.

Pretty sure I 1st saw your name as a charter subscriber to Phil Baumann's GTO Newsletter. Hard to believe that Newsletter originated over 30 years ago now.

The thing I remember most was reading about your effort to make exacting repros of the '64 splitters.

Pretty sure I still have an old catalog of your parts I picked up from somewhere probably from '80s or early '90s. Prices still good?

It was with mixed emotions that I watched the price of parts skyrocket. That GTO I bought in '73, I paid $135 for it. Not too many years later, I saw 4 bbl chrome air cleaners being offered for that. Seemed crazy to me at the time.

[GT182]

Nice story Dennis.

I've always said, "If I'd only thought ahead to today". Or, "if I knew then what I know now." But then I think of, "where in hell would I have kept all".

[66GTO Jim]

Hey Dennis,

Great post. Keep you posting more memories. I was a long time subscriber to your GTO newsletter and always found it informative and bought parts from your listings. I sure would like to buy more of those parts now at the prices you were selling them for then! I think I mentioned to you in an earlier post that I bought a set of your reproduction 14x6 Rally I's that were part of the first run you had manufactured. Those wheels have quite a few miles on them now. That was huge undertaking for you along with many of the other parts you brought to market. It was a job well done. Thanks!

Jim

[dennis kirban]

First, thanks for making this thread a "sticky" so it stays near the top making it easy for me to find and add to it.

Its tough to remember everything in the proper order but everything seemed to start to fall in to place after my 3 year stint in the Army.

I started a towing business specializing in removing cars from major apartment complexes in my area for apartment owners. At the same time my Dad who during his lifetime wrote over 50 books several went on to be come half million sellers based on Bible Prophecy and Health.
He would speak all over the USA for about 15 years.

This enabled me to travel around the country for my Dad about 2 weeks out of every month. I would haul an empty car trailer and usually bring back a performance car on these road trips. I would also hit junkyards on these long road trips.

The towing business put me in touch with different neighborhoods and I used to have a business card printed that said I would pay over local value for your car. The advantage I had was I already had seen the car and I knew it was something I wanted.

I still remember the first GTO I bought with the intention to resell. On the way to dinner at my mother -in-laws I stopped to look at a blue on blue 1965 GTO hardtop 4-sped tri-power. Original faded paint. Th owner wanted around $400 for it. I got it for $350.

At the time I subscribed to Hemmings. I put the car in there for I think around $1350 or so.
This would have been around 1975-76. I sold it. I thought this was great....I eventually would buy and sell about 30-35 GTOs. (Not many when compared to over the 315 of the 1986-1987 Turbo Regals I have sold)...

Unfortunately I don't have all my original newsletters but I think I started them around 1979-1980 time frame. At the time Classic GTO out of Texas written by Phil Bauman was the other player for doing a newsletter. He was without a doubt far more knowledgeable than I was and
wrote more from a original restoration stand point.

Our newsletter was more on the parts I was selling cars, humor, events and such. Again I apologize for any names spelled wrong or incorrect dates. This was the method of communciation back then to reach the buyers. Chris later did one also.

What is nice is any of you that have those old newsletters you can see in black and white how the values of parts have increased. For example awhile ago for kicks I added up from the newsletters I have how many Hurst wheel sets I sold....It was 23 sets over the years....

Yes, its true our company was the very FIRST to market the ralley Is and we will cover this later as its a very interesting story on how it came about and sizes etc we made.

Back in the day everything we reproduced was made in the USA. Also, when for example Ames or one of the other players were going to reproduce something we would discuss it among the companies so we were not sinking money into reproducing the same part. Our company always would wholesale to everyone else and we still do today.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[dennis kirban]

One of the interesting parts we were the first to reproduce was the 1964, 1965-1967 chrome AC oil caps.

As you know the 1964 was the push on style and I always referred to the tube on the valve cover as a toliet paper tube. (Similar in size) The 1965-67 was the twist in version. At the time GM had just stopped selling the replacement one. I am referring to the chrome replacement one that that did not have the embossed dimples with the raised words OIL and AC.

This caused confusion in the market place because some owners did not realize GM is in the replacement business Not the reproduction business. I think the tooling must have been misplaced or simply wore out for the correct embossing.

GM then did a painted twist on oil cap for the GTOs. I think it was grey. At the time I was dealing with a metal spinner. He said he could machine the cap off it and we could make a new cap in copper and get it chromed. He was pretty certain if he was careful he could then curl the lip and reconnect it without having the chrome "peal".

All I had to do was find a die maker to make the die that put the dimples in and the words OIL and AC out. (This was way before GM licensing came into effect!)

The downside was once we invested all this money we had no idea how long GM would make the painted twist on oil caps that we needed for the base & guts. A gamble for sure.

I found a old timer who could make the tooling. Cost us $500 to make the die that did the dimples inward and the OIL and AC upward. We sold the finished product for around $27 to $30. Which was not a bad price considering what was involved.

As a 1964-1967 GTO owner some of you may have our style on your car today. The cap would be over 20-25 years old! Several ways to determine if you have one of our original AC oil caps.

Being it is copper a magnet will not stick to it. Look at the underside the new reproductions at least the ones I have seen the underside is also chrome. Our version is not. Also being our version was spun even though copper is soft metal you may see a slight hint of ribs or spinning lines on the side.

Please keep in mind I am not implying mine is better than what is available today merely pointing out and I will on other things the differences. We sell to all the major players so I want to make that clear up front.

What you may also not realize is that same oil cap was used on other GM cars. Certain Buick GSs and notable the very desireable 409 Chevys I think 1961 and 1962. We used to sell to a company who specialized in the 409 cars....same oil cap. (I can't member which version though) I think it was the push in style.

I never kept track how many we actually made. An educated guess less than 500 total, because GM did stop selling the painted ones which basically put an end to my clever reproduction.

True Story....

I hope to have a friend of mine post some photos of the tooling and caps in the next day or so as I have kept the tooling.

On a side note the old timer that made us the die set.....also did the die sets for most of the Studebaker truck tail gates back in the day. Old timers may remember most trucks GM-Ford-Studebaker all had embossed tail gates at some point.

When we did this at the time GM did not have a cap for the 1964 push in style so that gave us a "captive" market.


denniskirban@yahoo.com

More to come

[theamcguy]

A special thanks to MR AMC Guy for posting these photos for me.

The first photo shows the basic oil cap in copper plain and then stamped. The second photo shows the die set that was used. Interesting since the dimples go one direction and the wording goes in the other direction.

If you have our old newsletters and a lot of free time you can pin down when we first produced them and when production ceased.

Again we welcome any comments or memories you wish to share that may trigger me to remember other things of interest related to GTOs.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[dennis kirban]

I will have Mr AMC Guy post another update on the oil caps. At one point GM did sell another chrome AC oil cap that replaced the original dimple design. For a short time you could buy a chrome AC Oil cap at least the 1965-67 twist style that lacked the double dimples. I believe this appeared this appeared in the early editions of the Pontiac GTO Restoration Guide and in the later editions it was corrected to show both versions (see page 345) of a later edition.

This caused confusion originally as way back when some owners thought the non dimple version was correct as being original equipment rather than the double dimple style.

Again this reverts back to GM being in the "replacement" business not the reproduction business.

So in review some owners may have this style. I don't believe the non dimple style was ever reproduced since it was not original to start with. Again I am not faulting the GTO Restoration Guide merely pointing out the differences...since both Paul and Chuck are long time personal friends of ours. (I even sold Chuck a Turbo Regal years ago).

It was from their book that gave me the initial inspiration to write the one we did on the 1986-1987 Turbo Regals.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

If any readers on research happen to have one of our oil caps be curious to know. Again a simple magnet test will prove it.

[dennis kirban]

Lets try a little mini contest taking a trip down memory lane for old timers.

In the GTO newsletters we did monthly for a number of years one used part that when we listed it for sale from time to time I usually referred to it as the 'chrome dome" or "chrome dome option"

The very posted correct response in this thread as to what part I am referring to is a winner. The winner will be instructed to send me a private message so I can send them a special prize.
Not eligible would be any GTO related company employees etc.

good luck players

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[theamcguy]

Here is a photo from my collection showing the later style GM replacement chrome twist AC Oil cap. Note this version lacks the double dimples as described above.


denniskirban@yahoo.com

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by theamcguy

Here is a photo from my collection showing the later style GM replacement chrome twist AC Oil cap. Note this version lacks the double dimples as described above.


denniskirban@yahoo.com

Dennis,

I respectfully have to disagree with the word "replacement". Here is a photo of my 67 GTO with the oil cap it came from the KAN factory in July 67.



As you can see, the brakes and ign wires were modified by myself, but the cap NEVER was changed.

Charles

[John V.]

Contest reply, could it be the '64 California emissions chrome sealed Oil Filler Cap?

Old Goat 67, that is pretty interesting. Non-Cal emissions? I don't think sealed oil caps were used for all until maybe '68?

Dennis, I have the (I think) original addition Resto Guide and the later edition adding '71-'72. No revisions to my knowledge were made to the '64-'70 section, which I think was regrettable.

Anyway, same verbiage in both on pg. 345. Was always clear to me, the dimpled was said to be original, the non-dimpled the later replacement. By Old Goat 67's evidence, gotta wonder how much later?

Maybe by '67 the non-dimpled had become O.E.?

[John V.]

Back to the Resto Guide and the oil filler caps, the illustration on pg. 345 mentions the regular '64 push on oil cap, p/n 6419454. According to the '66 MPC, this was the type FB-39 chrome cap, I assume referring to the AC p/n.

The only Pontiac usage for that one was the '64 GTO, except Cal emissions.

The Resto Guide states on pg. 317 that for the Cal emissions Closed Crankcase Vent System, the oil cap was moved to the right valve cover.

This implies that the non-Cal engines had the oil cap on the left valve cover which is not correct, in '64 the oil filler cap was always on the right valve cover.

The closed crankcase vent design was required for cars built to be sold in Cal starting Jan 1, 1964. Prior to that time, the Cal builds were no different from all others. My own late Nov '63 built GTO was sold to Theroff in Fresno and did not have the CCCV System.

I don't know much about the sealed oil cap used in '64, but the chrome version of it was p/n 6420980. Type FC-45. According to the '66 MPC, only applications for it were the '64 GTO with Cal CCCV and the '64 Tri-Power 421 with Cal CCCV.

These were the only 2 '64 applications that got the chrome RH valve cover with the extension tube that the oil cap pushed into. The '64 4 bbl 421 got the chrome RH valve cover that just had the hole in it, used a twist-lock oil cap.

The '64 4 bbl 421 chrome oil cap with Cal CCCV shows p/n 6410204 (no AC cross reference) which is the same oil cap listed for the '65 Cal CCCV for the P/8 421 & T/8 389, the latter being the GTO application. I assume this had to be a twist-lock type since the valve cover just had the hole it it.

AFAIK, the '64 RH GTO chrome valve cover did not change when the CCCV oil cap was installed, so I assume the '64 sealed oil cap (6420980) was push on also.

And if the regular vented '64 push on cap is rare, the sealed one has to be very rare.

Question, did the dimples serve a purpose in the construction of the cap?

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by John V.

Old Goat 67, that is pretty interesting. Non-Cal emissions? I don't think sealed oil caps were used for all until maybe '68?

Dennis, I have the (I think) original addition Resto Guide and the later edition adding '71-'72. No revisions to my knowledge were made to the '64-'70 section, which I think was regrettable.

Anyway, same verbiage in both on pg. 345. Was always clear to me, the dimpled was said to be original, the non-dimpled the later replacement. By Old Goat 67's evidence, gotta wonder how much later?

Maybe by '67 the non-dimpled had become O.E.?

Yes John,

My KAN GTO was vented cap on LH cover and PCV in back of valley cover.

I have always wondered about the reference on page 345 on the caps, just figured "what the heck, the rest of the book looks OK". All I know for SURE, is that mine came with a "non-dimpled" cap. It is what it is, and has always been there until this resto, because I could not find a replacement that was not dimpled! Darnit.

Charles

[GT182]

I have one that was on my 66 389, an original and dimpled. Now on the 400 that's in the car.


Sorry, camera is not good for closeups

And it's magnetic...



Is there a way to tell a reproduction non dimpled AC vented cap from from an 'original', as Charles has on his 67?

[dennis kirban]

I will address the various oil cap questions in the previous postings. Again this is to the best of my knowledge and keeping in mind with I believe 12-13 different plants back then producing the GTO for sure their can be slight variances when the cars where being built. The other thing to keep in mind is none of us where their to witness their actual assembly.

In my current world (turbo Buick) production all happened on these cars in one plant well basically two assembly started in Flint (Buick City) as it was called and then finished i Pontiac, Michigan so all the turbo Buicks have a P in the VIN number. (Makes restoration easier since production was fairly constant).

Everyone probably agrees that California has lead the country in emission laws. Being raised in Pennsylvania back then we hardly saw California cars. I do recall seeing some of the early weird vent systems notably on how they did the original tri-power air cleaners. I am sure those are rare today.

Without any hesitation the dimple style chrome AC oil cap 1964 push on version and later 1965-1967 twist style would have the double dimple look. Explaining why the double dimple I have no idea. Keep in mind GM used that version prior to the GTOs as I remarked earlier it is the same cap used on certain 409 engines I think 1962-1963. Again I am going by memory when we sold them to various companies back in the day.

Did some later ones leave the factory with the later style? Probably like I said the tooling more than likely broke down or maybe several supplies where used. I have no clue. I don't believe anyone has reproduced the non dimple style and its doubtful anyone would.

I am out of touch with the later crop of reproductions so I can only tell you what our company has done.

Still no one has come forward saying they got one of our copper ones. I would even get mixed up years ago as to which side had the oil cap.

No winners yet on the mini contest! Prize for the first correct answer is still waiting.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[dennis kirban]

Another slice of early GTO history:

Again I am not doing this in any particular order. I think most would agree Hurst probably had the deepest impact and connection with Pontiac notably the GTO. This worked greatly to my advantage since not only did my wife work there at one time, but provided some great opportunities for me.

Ironically I grew up in a near by town, Huntingdon Valley, PA and in that town was another automotive company that unfortunately had made its mark with earlier cars mostly from the 1950s. They also made a shifter but never captured the market that Hurst did. The plant is long gone.

I am referring to the company called Foxcraft. I don;t remember everything they made but there main product I believe was fender skirts....which slowly died out probably in the late 1960s.

Hurst had a lifetime warranty on their shifters long as you sent it in they rebuilt it for free.
I can't if and when they did charge for shipping etc.

This was one of the very first things we got involved with offering to GTO owners. The "edge" we had although w charged was I was able to get same day turn around. I wold drop the shifters off in the am and pick them back up a few hours later and ship them out the same day.

Be surprised what a dozen fresh donuts would accomplish back then to the two guys that virtually did all the rebuilding of the shifters. They had the special tools to dismantle and rebuild them.

The other shifter related thing we discovered like most of you know today is, although Pontiac bought the shifters from Hurst to save money and assembly time, Pontiac used their own style of linkage which was quicker to install but not as strong or positive as the Hurst linkage was. Hurst used threaded rods and buttons for a more "positive" feel where as Pontiac used a clamp style design.

Again I am referring to the early ones 1964 probably through 1967-68. Again going by memory as I think 1969 started the rod to the shifter off the column lock.

Hurst had two linkage kits. The first linkage kit was designed for the 1964-66 which Pontiac used a unique aluminum type of spacer to line the shifter up through the console hole in the GTO. I believe the 1967 used a different spacer so that linkage kit was different. The kit was called a KPO kit we sold hundreds and hundreds of them back in the day and wholesaled them to other companies as well. Unfortunately each time Hurst got sold getting the individual parts for this kit got harder and harder since they were designed for cars that were getting older so demand fell.

Anyone can Chirp in if you recall what the kpo linkage kits sold for....I even had copied original Hurst directions for them that went with each kit. If you look carefully at any Hurst linkage rods, buttons and levers each one had a stamped part number on it to match up to the specific kits. Hurst had such a huge array of linkage rods and angled levers to cover virtually every possible shifter back then.

The mid to late 1960s was without a doubt the hey day for Hurst. I can remember when new models came out that local dealers would send a new car over for them to fit linkage to so they could get it out in the market place.

I knew one of the main engineers that worked on the Hurst Olds. While Pontiac was definately the bread and butter for Hurst, George Hurst loved the Oldsmobile probably helps explain why
the Hurst Olds came about.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[theamcguy]

Thanz again to Bill for posting

By far one of the most desirable contest GTOs was a combination with Hurst and Pontiac. Hurst was about to move into their new building in 1965 in Warminster, where their entire operation for the first time would be under one roof. The instant success of the 1964 GTO for Pontiac only lead to more sales in 1965.

Most of you know the contest and have seen the ad in the various car magazines back in the day. What is rare is seeing an original poster this size. This poster is original and measures 17 inches wide by 24 inches tall.

I have no idea where it would have appeared. Could have been in speed shops or Pontiac show rooms. I got this years ago and it is mint. Not sure if its readable but the address to respond is in Glenside. This would be prior to their move to Warminster where they would remain until Mr Gasket bought it in the late 1980s. My Dads printing business was one block from their Glenside address. As a kid I would walk over to Hurst and get some free decals!

true story

denniskirban@yahoo.com

[GT182]

Bill, never seen one that size but I do remember it in the car magazines way back then. Wasn't there also one for the 1966 contest too?

Is there any place where we could possibly get a full size reproduction of the ad? I'd sure buy one.
And marked as a "reproduction" on the front or back. I wouldn't want to see someone try and pass one off as an original.

[John V.]

Dennis, Plant to Plant differences not quite so bad as you imagined, only 4 Plants assembled Tempest A bodies in '64. Additional Plants added in later years but never 12-13, I think 6 was the most Plants they ever used in a single year to build Tempests/GTOs.

The possibility that AC produced the oil caps at multiple facilities is a more likely reason for possible style differences even for the same part no.

I recall we saw that in a thread about Alternators or Coils or something, had to do with something Delco produced.

It occurs to me that the Service part that GM sold without the dimples might have been because the facility that produced them was a facility that had always produced them without the dimples, even for O.E. use like the one Old Goat 67 has. Perhaps a newer Plant. I agree that many different early AC oil caps had the dimples. So certainly more common.

I looked at the one Newsletter I have of yours, from 1990. Must have got it as a sample somewhere.

Nothing about a "chrome dome" so I'm stumped. I have some ideas but I'd just be guessing so I'll let others give it a shot.

I remembered reading about the KPO kit, it was $59.95 in '90.

I noticed in the Newsletter that you reproduced the '64 Console slider.

I bought one awhile back represented as original. Any way to tell an original apart from your repro? I got the spring with it but not the rubber grommets. Is that a hardware store item?