[geeteeohguy]

John, your rebuttal is so objective and rational that I am not going to argue the point. You make sense. I'm not 100% convinced on the ease of replacing A pillars and cowls, and how common it was, but you make excellent points that can't be denied. What I'd really like to see is some other members pitching in with their take on this. How about it guys?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Its a split amongst the masses .
Good points always come from both sides of the fence .
Been hashed out in every section many times .

Taboo deal .

Main thing is how untouched the tags look when all the dust settles .
Then what kind of remnants/traces are left from the original green body that is now supposed to be a factory white car. etc ...

They sell complete new bodies for early Camaro/Firebird already.
At least one outfit will do the dirty work for you - and advertises the services on eBay.

[klunker]

If it were me with this car I'd part it out.

That being said if I had the mindset to restore the car back to a reasonable representation of original I would definitely find a donor car. I have worked on cars with bad bodies and it never ends. After all I live in the kingdom of rust, Wisconsin.

As far as the Vin tag on the door pillar I'd cut as large a patch as I could get with relatively solid metal that could then be welded into the donor body. The Vin tag is never removed from the original body part it is attached to. The remaining body is removed from the tagged area and replaced with solid stuff from the donor. When done nobody is going to be able to tell it was done without destructive testing.

I'm with John here. I don't see the body shell as some how sacred and everything else is OK to swap or change. To me the body shell is where the tag is attached. Its a logical but arbitrary thing, the placement of the vin tag. The tag could of been attached to the floor pan of the body as well. What would that of meant then when floor pans needed replacing. Nobody seems to have a problem replacing parts of the body shell. Rear quarters, floor pans, window frames, I've even seen roofs swapped out. I don't see a problem moving the part of the body shell that the vin tag is onto to another better body. After all, am I swapping the tagged part to a better body or am I keeping the tag part and swapping the body? Symantics, End result is the same. I'd like to see what the law allows as far as part repair/replacement on a body shell. I am sure that some degree of this is allowed. If not anyone who repairs a rusted floor pan is in trouble. What the debate always boils down to is how much can be replaced? Personally I think its just stupid to try to fix a body shell as bad as this when you can get a donor that is in much better shape. The integrity of the whole shell ends up being compromised in the end if you try to fix it.

If the frame is good then that goes under the repaired body shell. I'd keep as much of the original stuff only if its in nearly the same condition as the donors assuming the donors stuff is all good. I'm not keeping the original frame or the donors frame if its rusty to the point of large flakes coming off and the surface of the steel looks like the moon. Then I'm looking for a 2nd donor frame. And so on with all the parts till I get the beast back together.

I know these cars are cherished by some. To me its just a car, a neat old car. One that's lived a long life. Nothing lasts for ever. I don't take this view with just cars but its with anything I own, I don't hold sentimental value in anything material. I have 2 old Pontiacs, I enjoy them but if they disappeared tomorrow it would be no big deal. Like I said in the beginning, for me this car is too far gone. My time is too valuable to me to waste the amount needed to fix this one. And I'm not going to spend the money having someone else do it because in the end the cost will be more than I would spend buying a finished car for. Also I don't think it could be restored and sold at a profit. Logically at this point parting out is the only solution for me. Now the new owner, that's a whole new can of worms. No right or wrong answer. If he wants to go at it, good for him, I hope he's happy in the end.

[b-man]

Find a solid LeMans body and transfer all the GTO goodies onto it.

I have owned a cloned '64 LeMans/GTO for about 23 years, just recently sold it. The new owner is fully aware that it started life without the GTO option.

Long before I bought this car someone installed the GTO hood and emblems onto this solid little hardtop.

Long live the clones!



Did I mention solid?

Yes, in CA you can still find them like this.

[james66GTO]

Sometimes I think the VIN tag discussions talk past the spirit or intent behind the meaning of the tags. The VIN tags, no matter where they are located on the car, no matter if they have to be removed and re-installed to get a part changed out, simply identify, or point to, a specific car at it's creation. The tag isn't a body part per se, but it doesn't exist (or have reason to exist anyway) apart from the specific car it points to. Let me give you a (tortured) analogy; God created me with very specific characteristics. There's only one of me. Sometime later (almost immediately now however) the Government assigned me a number (S.S.#). That number identifies me and only me. For all of time (presumably) I'm the only one that will receive that number. I can be born entirely healthy and become horribly maimed later in life. Lose limbs, need a kidney transplant, heart transplant, whatever. But until my soul leaves my body, the essence of who I am, who I was originally created to be, remains. And my identifying Government issued number forever identifies me and only me. That number can be stolen, can be used by someone else, can be lost forever in a computer glitch, it still only points to me. Even when I'm dead and gone it will reference me on some government death record somewhere. Yes, this analogy breaks down with cars - the question for the hobby is at what point does a car lose it's original, created essence? In other words, how many parts must remain to retain the 'soul' of the car? Eric

[64woodwheel]

Every car on the planet is just a collection parts bolted and welded together. The only differentiation is WHEN and HOW they were assembled. The purist will insist on buying only parts that were assembled together at a corporate assembly plant on the same day. Laws concerning VIN swapping are there to protect consumers from getting burned on a car that is misrepresented from the get go (most times with substandard workmanship). Such laws countering greed get in the way of honest people wanting to do the right thing by resurrecting a collection of parts that was assembled on the same day way back when. Really, what defines a car? The frame, drive train? the body? If its legal to swap a frame or drive train, then a body swap should be legal too. Only problem is bodies were chosen as the ultimate identity of a "vehicle" because they are the most permanent assembly of parts. Engines and frames can be changed relatively easily. Cowl panels, door pillars and the like are the most difficult to replace, no coincidence either. Ironically, cowl and VIN tags would be the easiest to change (with the right tools and parts).

[64woodwheel]

Originally Posted by b-man

Yes, in CA you can still find them like this.

No fair!!!!

Clone or not, I have always liked the original vibe of that car.

[Terry Gartner]

I will do my best to bring this one back, only because I'd like to do it. If I were into skiing there'd be nothing to show for it after I was done, at least there's something I can give to my kids or hopefully grandkids someday.

Now 64woodwheel, can you send me the pictures of the dash you said you have. I'm picking up a door and two fenders tomorrow. Now time like the present to get started.

[64woodwheel]

Will do.

[Tom Vaught]

I think that the people that cry the most about the VIN tag swaps are the ones that think that they will get screwed at some point on the value of a "clone" when they sell it (if it has a swapped VIN Tag and someone smarter then them can find the proof of the swap.

Shelby Cobras being one example. A Cobra guy crashes his vehicle. The car is worth too much to scrap, so the owner pays whatever is necessary to fix the car. And that might involve a new frame with the Identification numbers from the old frame cut out and installed on the new donor frame. Same deal with the aluminum bodies.

So here you have a man with a legit 64 GTO (just the basic parts are trashed). He gets a donor body and moves the legitimate parts to the donor body, documents everything, and where is the fraud? Whether you replace one body part or a thousand you have still replaced parts. That is why some old timers years ago kept records of every thing serviced on the vehicle. Might be different parts but he has the records.

No where does it say, to my knowledge that you can't move the VIN plate for a legitimate reason. My Uncle the Pontiac dealer moved two of them on owners vehicles after damage to the door pillar area. Yes, he could get the parts as John V mentioned right from the Pontiac Parts System. Two of his body men were the guys who did the work. Both were very skilled and you could not tell the cars were ever damaged. "Lead Men with a lot of Skills".

So I think that it personally has to do WITH INTENT.

Tom Vaught

[chrisp]

Do what you are to do and do not look back , you bought it as a true GTO and when you are done it will be a GTO .

[bbnotop]

I love these debates as they become similar to a person's take on art, religion or politics. As to the legal debate I assume that every state is different, the feds have some overridding laws and there is probably some legal way to address a rebuilt car. But aside from the legal issues that can be decoded, the other issues come down to opinion and philosophy of what is the "essence" of a motor vehicle. It is only a debate that can come up on a forum such as this one. Objectively a car is a collection of parts, but if they were only this, there would be no such site such as this, or persons willing to spend more time and money to resurrect or purchase such a collection parts than can ever likely be objectively rationalized. I hope this and that rusty '64 lives on.

[bbnotop]

Tom's post reminds me of the old saying, "Of the 859 Boss 427's ever built, only 4700 of them are on the road today."

[bill ryder]

Very good position,Tom!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Bill"! The "INTENT" fits perfectly.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by bbnotop

Tom's post reminds me of the old saying, "Of the 859 Boss 427's ever built, only 4700 of them are on the road today."

Considering that there never were any "BOSS" 427 Engines ever built, that would be a great trick.

Lets put it this way, There were only "XXX" numbers of "BOSS 429" Engines (or commonly called "BOSS-9") parts made by Ford, Everyone of those parts found a nice home and loving family! (;>) No different than Tom S creating a couple of RA-V vehicles for his personal taste and then enthusiasts buying his RA-V cars to brag about with their buddies.

Tom Vaught

Again it is the INTENT deal

[tom s]

How did I get drug into this rebody thread?Tom

[bbnotop]

That was my point, value is all about perception no matter what the facts.

[johnta1]

Shelby Cobras being one example. A Cobra guy crashes his vehicle. The car is worth too much to scrap, so the owner pays whatever is necessary to fix the car. And that might involve a new frame with the Identification numbers from the old frame cut out and installed on the new donor frame. Same deal with the aluminum bodies.

This would be a great example of why VIN swapping is illegal.

The only reason to swap the VIN is for monetary gain.
If the Cobra guy destroys his car, he's SOL.

Why wouldn't you keep the VIN of the 'parts car' your going to swap the GTO VIN onto?

Put all your GTO parts on the Tempest and use the Tempest VIN?

Because you want to deceive people and get more money.

Otherwise, there is no need to swap VIN's.



In most states, (might be Federal too) if the damage is bad enough that a VIN has to be removed/transferred, the State DMV will issue a new VIN.
(if not also giving you a rebuilt/junk title)

With the replacement parts from the factory, like the door pillar, that part didn't come off a car that had a VIN or come with it's own VIN.

[Bluesugar]

This thread is intriguing!,..A Shelby Cobra was nothing more than a re-engineering dream of a British AC body shell,..Carroll didn't design that body,he put options on it and refined it(if we're talking about the mustang cobra,same thing,he didn't design that body,he put options on it),..getting back to Pontiac!!,..Since the GTO was an option only available on the Lemans series for '64/'65,would it be acceptable to have a Pontiac dealership put that option on a vin correct V8 Lemans that was crunched and came back to the dealer for a remake?!!...A six cyl. Lemans would not work because of the vin tag but a V8 Lemans would have the same vin code(remember,some GTO's didn't have the "N" in the Vin,..A GTO dealer installed option on a Lemans,('64/65 only)...Is that permissible??!!!..now we have a whole new can of worms to cook

[The Champ]

Bluesugar

There was no "N" in the VIN to identify a GTO. I think you are referring to the "5N" that was on the data plate for some GTO's.

The GTO was an option on the LeMans series in 64/65. As we in the Pontiac family are lucky enough to have Pontiac Historic Services available to provide the actual build sheets for most all VIN's manufactured, it is very easy to document that a car was a LeMans or a GTO.

It is always acceptable to build a clone. It is not acceptable to represent it as the real deal.