[62 bv]

here are some of the one that mike did for my 64 it was all there when we got it

[John V.]

Bill, I honestly did not know what you meant about the dressout items. My point was that there were a number of items added at dressout. If dressout was a quick operation with few items to be added, then more likely that most of the vac system might have been preinstalled at engine assembly. But since there were already a number of items to add at dressout, just seemed to me that more of the vac system was likely added then, not preinstalled. Not trying to say I was right, in fact I now believe I was wrong. Just explaining my logic.

I was just looking at a pic of an old crusty '64 tripower intake, pretty complete with the vac system still in place. No indication of any later repainting, it wasn't "pretty". Obvious light blue engine paint overspray visible on the hose from the Thermo Vac Control to Tee, just as you have been saying. None visible on the other hose from the Thermo Vac Control (which may not have been original). And none visible on the tee or clamp band, all still attached to the intake and looking quite original.

So looks for sure that one hose was preinstalled and got shot with paint.

The auto trans modulator line is the rarest thing to find. Or should I say, auto trans tripower GTOs are the rarest thing to find.

But here is how I understand the arrangement. The modulator hard pipe is connected at the modulator with a small piece of hose. From there, it runs up the right side of the carbs, with a few bends along the way, it then wraps around the front carb, turning finally into the 3 way fitting just alongside the left side of the front carb.

No hose at all up by the carb, the hard pipe connects to the fitting with a Threaded Sleeve type nut.

If there is ALSO Power Brakes, the PB hard line is connected to the bottom of the 3 way fitting. If not, the bottom opening got a Threaded Sleeve type plug.

The '64 long pipe extension which includes the 3 way fitting is seen in the attached pic.

The '65 style (which as I mentioned might have been used at mid year in '64 also) is seen in the MPC illustration. A blurry scan of it is also attached. I have a clear scan of it but it is too large a file to post. Hopefully it will help explain the arrangement for the auto trans modulator hard pipe as I described in words. The illustration shows the TS nut to attach the modulator hard pipe and shows the plug that was used without PB.

The '65 big car used its own specific modulator hard pipe IIRC, but the arrangement was same as for the GTO.

'64 big car auto trans didn't use a modulator so the auto trans tripower '64 GTO was a unique setup.

[bill ryder]

John, This is the way I invision the process. Parts are coming from Rochester. Three appropriate carbs hanging from one jig by their air cleaner studs, maybe even having the base gaskets attached. All the steel pipe and hoses already installed by Rochester and shipped to the plant for installation as an assembly. The appropriate carb combo is set on its correct engine and 1/4 by 7/16 nuts are attached and torqued. That only leaves plugging in the steel line to the already painted engine STV hoses and vac tee. Probably to much for way back then, but that's the way I would do it!! "Bill"!

[John V.]

Bill, perhaps not that sophisticated.

In Eric White's Made in Pontiac series originally published in The Legend back in '93, he interviewed a guy who worked at the Pontiac Plant for about 5 years, started at the beginning of the '64 model year.

Eric provides an illustration of the motor bridge, identifying the various stations where different external components were installed.

The guy worked for a time as a utility man on the motor bridge. He described a few things that went on there. He talked about the K19 station that originated in '64. The closed PCV system (K19 option) went into production in Jan '64. I figured most of the K19 engines were dressed out at Fremont (big cars at South Gate) but apparently every once in awhile the Pontiac Plant built a car for the Cal market, so they would add the K19 plumbing at a bench area off to the side of the motor bridge line stations. I'm assuming each satellite assembly plant would have had to do their own engine dressout.

Here's what he said about the work done on the motor bridge regarding the carbs and fuel lines:

"The first job they did was the power steering bracket. The next job, a little old lady, her husband was on the radiator line, a foreman, his name was Bruno. Her name was Jenny, she put carburetors on. Whenever she got a tri-power to put carburetors on, she got behind, because she had three carburetors to install. There was an area right there that was probably forty feet long that was nothing but pallets of carburetors two deep. She would have to walk in among them and get the right part. She went by the manifest hangin' on the side of the motor as to which carburetor that took. Then there was a woman that worked right behind her, her name was Liz. Her husband was the president of our local in the union. Her job was, I want to say she put fuel lines on. Then it turned the corner, and a kid from Brown City by the name of Pat Brady...he had an Iris Mist '65 Chevy. He was a Chevy man. What was his job? I used to know all them jobs right by heart."

Take his recollections with a grain of salt, he hadn't worked there in more than 20 years. For example, the motor bridge work station layout shows that the electrical harness went on first, then the bellhousing, then the pulleys and fan. The power steering/alternator brackets were at the 4th station, not "first job".

And after the Carbs went on, the line "turned a corner" and the next stations were Alternator install, Alternator Strap(s) install, Power Steering Pump install, Air Conditioning Compressor install, and then Fuel Lines install. It turned another corner after the fuel lines station but that was a ways away from the carb install station, not "right behind" as he was thinking.

No way for me to know if the operation sequence was same in '64 as suggested by Eric's illustration.

And the operation details are too general to know when any of the tri-power vac system components went on.

Certainly isn't clear from the above quote, but I do not get the impression that the 3 carb combo was preassembled with fuel lines prior to installation on the intake.

According to the illustration, the intake as it came from engine assembly didn't even have the carb studs, they (along with the coil) were installed at the 5th station just ahead of the carb install.

There are so many assembly sequence details that aren't clear to me. When did the distributor, spark plugs, wires, and wire looms get installed. Were the exhaust manifolds installed at engine assembly? The air cleaners were installed during final assembly so how much of the K19 plumbing was installed at the K19 bench within the motor bridge?

Bill, what does STV stand for? Pretty sure you are talking about the Thermostatic Vacuum Control mounted on the front of the intake but STV throws me. There is also the center carb mounted Vacuum Control Switch but I'm thinking it came preinstalled on the center carbs as supplied by Rochester.

The auto trans front carb may have come with the solid pipe extension or the later revised stub type extension already installed by Rochester. Maybe Rochester also supplied the short hose connector and the 3 way fitting as part of the auto trans front carb for the revised extension design.

I'd also guess that somewhere Pontiac had to install the plug in the 3 way fitting for a standard brake auto trans car or connect the brake booster line if it had the PB option. Or maybe Rochester supplied the fitting with the booster line plug preinstalled and Pontiac removed it and connected the booster line only for the rare PB build. That probably would make the most sense, since PB wasn't that common then. But who knows where this was done?

As labor got expensive, trying to streamline the assembly process got higher priority.

But in '64, I'd bet each carb was supplied separately by Rochester and installed separately at dressout.

What you envision has merit, I just don't think that's how it was done in '64.

[War eagle]

Had to add this because I also am seeing overspray on engine components that I am cleaning up as I complete out the assembled engine. I noticed that the bagged engine motor mount bolts are pontiac blue with little paint left on the mounts. I have another 64 goat engine with mounts but couldn`t detect any overspray. But 3 other 389, 1964 big car engines are definitely oversprayed with blue paint. The condition of the mounts are poor on these observed motors but there is no doubt with the bolts and with a bit of screw driver jabbing at the hard grease, the bolts have blue overspray. I assume then, that the mounts would have been installed before engine paint. Probably makes sense because the engine was tagged for app and mount known. Somebody lately claimed that the mount bolts (mount to engine) was not painted. I don`t agree at this point.

[bill ryder]

Thanks John! Good post. The part that surprised me was the studs NOT being installed?? EVERYONE paints the studs engine blue and we make a point of touching up the tops so the paint is very noticeable.
I am dyslexic when hurrying. I did mean TVS.
As always, we appreciate your time and thoughts!!!!!!!!! "Bill"!
One of the reasons I bought those pieces was for the originality. I knew they would be a good conversation piece.
I think I'll use the 2 large vac hoses and the plastic ck valve on my car. It's been a long time since I've seen the white one at a show. Most are long gone. I'll get rid of the rest.

[62 bv]

the check valve i have for mine is mettle

[62 bv]

thats metal

[John V.]

Only going by what is indicated in Eric's old article. The illustration appears to be "official" but Eric is a pro illustrator so would need him to tell us where he got the info.

W.E., station 14 within the motor bridge indicates this is where the Starter Motor and Motor Mounts were installed.

Last station identified before the engine assembly leaves the bridge and heads for trans mating, although the K19 Bench is identified as station 15, but it is positioned at the front end by the engine bank.

Worth noting, the engines within the motor bridge were already designated and sequenced for a build. At this point all optional items for a given build were known per manifest. I understand your point that the motor mounts were a given prior to the engine being designated for a build.

Remember, this is the Pontiac Plant and I'm uncertain if it represents the '64 motor bridge operations or some later year. Just stating what the illustration shows.

The Engine Assembly Plant assembled the engines for all other plants too.

Presumably they shipped to the satellite Plants with the same components as the engines that arrived at the Pontiac motor bridge.

But that isn't for certain either. Conceivably, the Engine Plant assembled the engines for the satellite Plants more completely (such as adding motor mounts before paint).

I sure don't know for sure.

[War eagle]

John I very much agree. I just can not imagine an EXTRA assembly step dealing with the initial assembly(a commom mount)--then pass the task on to a satilite plant? I also have an original 64 GTO bellhousing with overspray from the original untouched engine. I say this, but who knows. My car on the otherhand, had the engine removed once for overhaul and does not have the over spray.
I will try and publish a pic of the painted bolts but---Maybe these 4 engines were rebuilt and Detailed 40 years ago with some interest in painting the motor mount bolts? Jeezz. It`s one of those deals that, well if a few guys can come forward it might give us a better idea of CORRECT.

[bill ryder]

Hi Brody, The metal Moraine ck valves are more common. You can still find them if you know where to look. The plastic bulls eye valves are pretty much gone. I've been looking for years. I know where there are a couple NOS, BUT!!! I believe the plastic is what was used coming down the line. Just me!! "Bill"!

[John V.]

The guy that Eric interviewed went into quite a bit of detail about the bellhousings being installed within the motor bridge. He describes one of his jobs was a bench job within the motor bridge putting the clutch forks together and subassembling the bellhousing assembly. He explained that the clutches were on the engines as they came from the engine plant but was very clear about the bellhousings being installed within the motor bridge so overspray on a bellhousing can't be explained unless the bellhousing install was different in '64 than from when he remembered it.

He never worked in the Engine Plant (Plant 9) but spoke of spending some break time watching them assemble engines there so he knew a fair bit about what they did in that plant.

Plant 9 was identified in the illustration as the Engine Plant and the motor bridge was within Plant 8 which was the final assembly plant.

But the Pontiac complex had a Plant 18 that was also called an Engine Plant. I don't think this plant was explained in the article and I've always been curious what the purpose of this plant was.

[JAKE 64]

For 1964

Yes, I and someone else submitted pictures of the Vacuum Hose to Reserve Tank Connector Tee (Tee). I have included another picture showing a couple more of these Tee's showing the blue engine paint. This was all covered in an earlier posting, but if you reference page 7 of the small booklet "A device for shrinking time and distance", the photo of the tri-power engine, you will see that the two hoses coming off the thermostatic vacuum control assembly are painted engine blue. The Tee is hidden, and not visible. However, based on blue engine paint observed on several Tee's, I have to believe that these Tee's were in place when the engines were painted. Normally, I would not have expected the hoses and Tee to be present when the engine was painted, but based on page 7, but more importantly, on the prevalence of painted Tee's, it appears, that for whatever reasons, the two hoses and Tee were painted engine blue. Why they were painted is anyone's guess, and may have been done due to the previously mentioned dirt issue, perhaps accessibility, or other reasons. The first picture below shows my earlier posting, the second picture is of a stash of a friends collection. I have another spare in the garage (not pictured), and it also shows evidence of being painted engine blue.

Referencing this same picture, every colored and timely picture showing the carbs (both tri-power, four barrel, and two barrel), and every engine I have ever observed, the carburetor mounting studs have always been painted engine blue. I can't imagine any reason why these studs would have been mounted after engine assembly/painting. With the different length mounting studs (two right rear studs with dimpled end) used on the rear tri-power carb, I would think they would want to control stud installation in engine assembly, and the studs would have been present prior to engine painting.

Referencing my notes on motor mounts, disassembly on unmolested (original paint) engines, the engine boss where the motor mounts were located, were fully painted with engine blue paint. There would be no paint coverage on these bosses if the motor mounts were in place. There was no evidence of blue engine paint on the motor mounts.

The only item that I can think of that was painted engine blue separate from the engine were the two (with auto transmission) wire looms that got mounted to the inside of the valve covers. This was due to the use of the chrome valve covers. Cars with painted valve covers would have had these looms in place when the engines were painted.

Based on observations of several cars, I believe that dress out of the engines was prompt, followed closely after the engines were painted. This is evidenced by engine blue paint observed smeared (not oversprayed) on hoses, brackets, and the Victor exhaust manifold gaskets.