[giles]

I know we have tossed around the notion of this mythical beast before, but I was just looking at an assembly manual drawing for the Formula bumper emblem and noticed an interesting note that pertained to the installation of the Ram Air hood decal.

The note was a change entered 3/12/70 that stated "LS1 option added to item 6 usage" Item 6 in this case is the RA hood scoop decal.

Too bad nobody checked off LS1 and W66 together!

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by giles

I know we have tossed around the notion of this mythical beast before, but I was just looking at an assembly manual drawing for the Formula bumper emblem and noticed an interesting note that pertained to the installation of the Ram Air hood decal.

The note was a change entered 3/12/70 that stated "LS1 option added to item 6 usage" Item 6 in this case is the RA hood scoop decal.

Too bad nobody checked off LS1 and W66 together!

You can sign ME up for one of those(maybe even TWO),but FWIW,I believe that a L74 W66 M21 would be WAY MORE fun to drive on the street & in STOCK form (as delivered,right out of the box) probably just as quick/fast as an LSI.

I realize that with some tweaking/tuning,the LSI's are even faster than our 455 HO's,but as I recall,the original magazine roadtests of the day of STOCK Ram Air IV GTO's revealed less than STELLAR performance,like high 13's?

I think the 69 Firebird Ram Air IV's are the ones to beat today.They have a decided weight advantage over the early secondgen cars.

(I'm not knocking the Ram Air IV,but that cam just has TOO soggy of a bottom end to be much FUN on the street)

I think I'm going to change my order.
I want to get one of EACH color.

I figure they might be worth something one day!

[keith k]

Originally Posted by giles

I know we have tossed around the notion of this mythical beast before, but I was just looking at an assembly manual drawing for the Formula bumper emblem and noticed an interesting note that pertained to the installation of the Ram Air hood decal.

The note was a change entered 3/12/70 that stated "LS1 option added to item 6 usage" Item 6 in this case is the RA hood scoop decal.

Too bad nobody checked off LS1 and W66 together!

I know we have had this debate before... but I'm pretty certain that checking those two options together would not have gotten you a car so equipped, even though there's apparently not any place where it's documented that you couldn't.

Just the fact that there were none built I think says it all. Someone surely would have ordered one if it was available (just as they ordered RAIV '69 Firebird 400s rather than T/As, or '73 SD Formulas rather than SD T/As). Theoretically the percent take of RAIV '70 Formulas would have been about the same as RAIV '70 GTOs if the option were available.

Sure would be nice to have one, though

[unruhjonny]

the ultimate in cool for sure.

Does your note indicate any differnt decal than that of what a 1970-L74 Formula would have recieved?

I've always been of the opinion that a 70-LS1 Formula would have reccievd the same decal as a 70-L74 Formula... the "Ram Air IV" doesn't seem to look right on a Formula hood.

What I'd really like to know is if any Formulas ever left the factory with the trunk mounted "400" badge... or if any of those emblems were actually made.

[giles]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

the ultimate in cool for sure.

Does your note indicate any differnt decal than that of what a 1970-L74 Formula would have recieved?

The note indicates that the Ram Air decal had an additional application, so that would mean the decal was the same for both L74 and LS1.

As to Keith's comment that none could have been built; I think it may have been more of an issue of pragmatism. There were only so many LS1 engines available for production and it was decided to "build out" that stock at the very end of the year since they certainly could not be used in '71.

We could debate this endlessly to no avail, but I think that the drawing of a Formula L67 air cleaner, with the dual heat risers, is indication enough that SOMEONE was serious at some point that a 70 Formula RAIV was offered.
The air cleaner would have been the only part that I can think of that would have been tooled specifically for a W66 / LS1 / L67
(And what is up with the two different engine RPOs?)

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by giles

The air cleaner would have been the only part that I can think of that would have been tooled specifically for a W66 / LS1 / L67
(And what is up with the two different engine RPOs?)

The original plan was that the RAIV's installed in the 70 Firebirds were supposed to be a Super Duty version of the engine - I believe it was supposed to even have provisions for dry sump oiling (like the SD455).
As I understand at the last miute, the SD-RAIV plans were dithced; the SD-RAIV RPO was kept for the 70 Firebirds, but as we all know there is no difference between the 70-GTO-L67 & the 70-Firebird-LS1.

I believe that HPP did an article on this very subject roughly ten years ago.
(mabey someone can chime in with the year/month??)

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by giles

The note indicates that the Ram Air decal had an additional application, so that would mean the decal was the same for both L74 and LS1.

As to Keith's comment that none could have been built; I think it may have been more of an issue of pragmatism. There were only so many LS1 engines available for production and it was decided to "build out" that stock at the very end of the year since they certainly could not be used in '71.

We could debate this endlessly to no avail, but I think that the drawing of a Formula L67 air cleaner, with the dual heat risers, is indication enough that SOMEONE was serious at some point that a 70 Formula RAIV was offered.
The air cleaner would have been the only part that I can think of that would have been tooled specifically for a W66 / LS1 / L67
(And what is up with the two different engine RPOs?)

I'm not really up on the "mythical"/non-production Pontiac engines,but I think that the LSI designation was for the Ram Air Super Duty engine (303 Tunnel Port?,maybe) that never made production.

When it was announced that ALL engines were going to be low compression for 1971, that spelled instant DEATH to ANY high compression/high performance engines in GM/Pontiacs program.
Pontiac decided to fill all the existing LSI T/A orders on hand with all those "unpopular" GTO L67 Ram Air IV engines that nobody was ordering. (the NERVE!)

That would also explain/justify the LATE production for the L67 T/A's.

JMO. I stand to be corrected on this one,if anybody has the FACTS!

[keith k]

Originally Posted by giles

The note indicates that the Ram Air decal had an additional application, so that would mean the decal was the same for both L74 and LS1.?

Interesting that they would have planned a different convention for Firebirds than for GTOs, although I think that was true in '69, too, wasn't it? (Firebird hood scoops did not say Ram Air IV, while GTO did).

Originally Posted by giles

As to Keith's comment that none could have been built; I think it may have been more of an issue of pragmatism. There were only so many LS1 engines available for production and it was decided to "build out" that stock at the very end of the year since they certainly could not be used in '71.

We could debate this endlessly to no avail, but I think that the drawing of a Formula L67 air cleaner, with the dual heat risers, is indication enough that SOMEONE was serious at some point that a 70 Formula RAIV was offered.
The air cleaner would have been the only part that I can think of that would have been tooled specifically for a W66 / LS1 / L67
(And what is up with the two different engine RPOs?)

Yup, I'd agree.

[Shift'n Gears]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

but as we all know there is no difference between the 70-GTO-L67 & the 70-Firebird-LS1.

I did not see the article in HPP. I've always heard that the HP rating difference was due to a "Stop" in the TA carb that would limit WOT... Does anyone one if this was ever the case? Or were the engines really the same for the GTO and T/A?

[unruhjonny]

The carb stop was an early 1st gen Firebird thing.

By 1970 the Pontiac A & F bodies used the exact same carbs, so it was purely a numbers game.

[The Boss]

Could have been ordered, never was.

Won't stop me from building one some day.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by keith k

Interesting that they would have planned a different convention for Firebirds than for GTOs, although I think that was true in '69, too, wasn't it? (Firebird hood scoops did not say Ram Air IV, while GTO did).




Yup, I'd agree.

the firebird ram air 4 cars did have the " ram air IV " on the hood

[ramair2]

"I think the 69 Firebird Ram Air IV's are the ones to beat today.They have a decided weight advantage over the early secondgen cars."

Sorry my dollar goes on the (lighter still) 68 RA II Bird as the all-time PMD 1/4 mile King Kong. Jim Mino and others at the Pure stock Drags who run Ram II Birds on a regular basis in the very low 12's would no doubt agree.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

the firebird ram air 4 cars did have the " ram air IV " on the hood

Ah... , cool. Thx-

[unruhjonny]

I'd love to have a 68 RAII Firebird...
That just might eek out anything else on my wish list...

but they're made of pure unobtanium - so I don't bother wasting my time on lusting after one.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Could have been ordered, never was.

Won't stop me from building one some day.

So if The Boss were to build a technically correct RAIV Formula, would it be legal for the Pure Stock Drags...?

[unruhjonny]

I've wondered that myself.

I would think snce the Magnum 400 recreation was allowed that this should be allowed.

The RAIV Formula 400 was a legit car for NHRA racing back in the day... it was SUPPOSED to have been built...

I really wonder if just no one put in orders...
Since the info was not revealed on any of the PMD litereature, and was only put in (magazine) print as actually being available circa march or so... I wonder if there were only 88 built because you needed to know someone who knew how to order one - and since the TA was the big news, the logic back on April or May of 1970 might have been: "why order it on a Formula - that TA looks mean!"

I used to think of making my car appear as a legit LS1 Formula...

[The Boss]

I just need to find an M-21 3:73 equipped bird - if it's a RA III that's even better!

May have located one too!

[gloryrestoparts]

looks like someone is going to beat me to building that 70 RAIV Formula for Pure Stock. Thats ok as I have 2-3 other cars to do first. But it IS appealing. I've already located a RAIII formula too, but it's an a/c car :-(


this Sept we'll see the RAII/RAIV debate up close and personal in Stanton. Bruno will have his 69 RAIV T/A there (right Bruno?). And we all know what he's done with his 69 RAIV GTO


Chris

[unruhjonny]

That should be a close match;

I would think that if everything was equal the RAII would better the RAIV if for no other reason thatn the deeper plenum under the carb (the cast iron intake over the 2 part aluminum intake).

It would be close though... would both get the best RA manifolds...