[Va68goat]

Chiphead,

The oil pressure was fine and read what it always reads. At the time we started the car, it was cold and as you can see, we didn't run the car for a long time so it makes sense what you're saying about the lack of oil flow. Hopefully we'll take another look at the adjustment today.

TedRamAirll,
We'll slow down the idle and give that a shot. Now that you mentioned that, I remembered something else. After we checked the rocker adjustment, added a gasket to that valve cover (It "looked" like there was a witness mark on the valve cover), we put the valve cover and started the car. The car was cold so it was on high idle (electric choke carb) but we didn't hear the ticking noise. When we brought the idle down, the ticking noise was there again. I don't know if that means anything. I'm not sure if we couldn't hear it the ticking because of the noise of the engine..

[chiphead]

to set the rocker preload, I put each cylinder at top dead center at the compression stroke and set both the intake and exhaust valves on that cylinder at the same time.

before you take the polylock loose, check for excessive slack at the push rod. excessive slack means you either did not have enough preload the last time you set it, or that lifter plunger is collapsed.

Also check how far down do you have that polylok adjusted. You could have too much or too little preload from the last time you set the Rockers. write down on a piece of paper any rocker that you think may have had too much or too little adjustment or kind of looks questionable when you reset it.

Only then do you take the poly lock loose. Verify you have up and down slack at the push rod, then slowly hand tighten the polylok until the vertical up and down jiggle at the push rod goes away. You should be able to rotate the pushrod by the tips of your fingers but not feeling up and down slack between the lifter and The Rocker. That's about zero Lash. Tighten polylock 1/2-3/4 turn past that and that should give you a decent amount of preload. I always do it by feel, I don't use a wrench until it's time to give it that extra half turn to set preload.

Once you have all 16 valves set, Crank It Up and let it run for several minutes. it should start to run smooth and noise should start to go away after about 90 seconds to two minutes. it can take up to 2 minutes before you get good oil flow out to the passenger side valve train.

[Formulajones]

I do one at a time here. With all the fancy camshafts and varying degrees at .050 .006 .004 etc etc... I don't feel comfortable adjusting lash unless I know each lobe is "exactly" on the base circle and not 20 or 30 or 50 degrees off the base circle. Trying to do 2 cylinders at a time, one of those isn't going to be exactly on the base circle, that's impossible.

The way I do that is rotate each valve until I see max lift, mark the balancer with a piece of tape and a reference point. Then rotate the engine one complete revolution. That will put that particular lobe exactly on it's base circle. Then I make my adjustment.

This method takes longer but it is much more accurate.

[gtofreek]

Use the adjustment chart I sent you Joe. It insures every valve you set is 100% on the base circle. Then you only have to turn the engine 1/8 turn at a time to do the next valve. This way you only turn the engine 2 revolutions to adjust them all. I would go 1 full turn past zero because of the aluminum heads which will grow when hot. I've had lifter noise before from only 1/2 turn past zero like I normally do for iron heads.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Use the adjustment chart I sent you Joe. It insures every valve you set is 100% on the base circle. Then you only have to turn the engine 1/8 turn at a time to do the next valve. This way you only turn the engine 2 revolutions to adjust them all.

Was that suppose to be 1/4 turn or 90° turn of the crank? And then follow the firing order starting with no.1 at TDC compression.

Clay

[gtofreek]

1/8 turn of the crank.

[chiphead]

Paul, could you post that adjustment chart? That would come in handy.

[Va68goat]

Here you go chiphead!

[Va68goat]

Yesterday we did some further work on my 462 build regarding the ticking noise. Just so you don't have to go back and read prior posts..I'll explain everything here quickly.

I'm new to cars so please be patient!

I had Paul (GTOFREEK) build me a 455 (462ci) for my 68 GTO. When we put the motor in and started it up for the 1st time, we noticed a knocking and a ticking noise. The knocking noise was almost drowning out the ticking noise but it was present.

Here is a video of the first start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLshwwe-Tc

We inspected the rockers (1.65) and we saw what we thought were witness marks on the rockers. We then installed 1.65 Crower rockers. The knocking and ticking noise was still present. We checked the valve covers for clearance with the rockers and it was fine.

After about 23 hours of diagnosis time, we pulled the motor and discovered the knocking noise was attributed to lack of spacing of the windage tray. It turned out that only one washer was used to space the windage tray when usually 2 washers were used. We fixed the problem and the knocking noise went away.

The rockers were adjusted and checked 3 times by 2 different people that know what they are doing and they were correct. Paul advised to lock them in by one full turn. They were locked in at 3/4 turn with the Crowers. (Same ticking noise as when they were turned at one full turn with the other rockers). So..my buddy pulled the pushrods on the passenger side and discovered that 5 of the pushrods were bent. They were not bent real bad but when we cleaned them and rolled them on glass, it was obvious that they were warped. The bent pushrods were located at the following position:
- #8: Intake AND exhaust pushrod bent
- #4: Intake AND exhaust pushrod bent
- #2: Intake pushrod bent
We did not have time to inspect the drivers side.

Here are some specs that may help you determine a problem.
KRE HEADS: D-port (unported)
- Valve spings: Comp Cams 914-16, seat: 155-160 #'s, Open: 405-410 #'s
- Spring installed height: 1.735" exhaust, 1.750" intake .083 + to coil bind
- Pushrod: 8.950", .083 wall 1 piece (pushrods are 5/16 Smith brothers)
- Rockers Arms: Crower 1.65
- Camshaft: Custom Lunati Voodoo Hyd. Roller
- Duration: @ .050: 243 / 251 Adv. Duration: 295 / 303 lobe separation: 112
- Intake valve lift: .616" Ehaust valve lift: 621 Cam degreed to: 105 ICL

When the motor was dyno'd, it was brought to 6,200 rpm's. Paul said that was not too much for a 455 block. Paul said he did not hear the ticking or the knocking noise at dyno but said since there were no mufflers on the car, he may have missed it. A few of my buddy's said that it could be a crushed lifter. Here is a video of the rockers running wihout the valve cover on. Someone told me that the oil flow on #8 seemed to have a light flow of oil. I understand that #8 is the last to get oil but if both of the #8 pushrods are bent, does the lack of oil flow and the bent #8 pushrods mean anything?

(OIL FLOW) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAwSYevxsb4

(Ticking noise): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1hXVsu577c

This motor has about 100 miles on it. I have never pushed this motor hard since I've had it. The same ticking noise is present now as it was when I first started it. When I asked Paul if he had any idea why these pushrods could have been damaged, he didn't have an answer. If anyone could help me out with your thoughts, I would appreciate it. It's been over a year and a half since I started the process of having this motor built and I have yet to be able to enjoy it. At this point, I'm open for any suggestions and I would really appreciate any help! Me and my friends have over 40 hours of diagnosis and actual work on this motor. I just want this thing right!

Joe

[Will]

Bent pushrods are a symptom of a pushrod that is too weak for the spring pressure used, a lack of clearance in the valvetrain, usually coil bind but could also be a lack of retainer to guide clearance, or possibly contact with the top of the pushrod hole in the head.

What is the lobe lift of the cam? You said .616"/.621" lift - is that measured at the valve and if so, with what rocker ratio? That's a lot of lift for a street engine. Have you verified your retainer to guide clearance?

You also said .083"+ to coil bind. That's measured with the actual lift at the valve, correct? Was it measured with the retainer in place on the top of the spring? I've seen dual springs coil bind on the inner spring before the outer spring when the retainer is in place.

Are there any witness marks on the pushrods from anything other than the guide plates? What guide plates are used? is there any chance the pushrod is contacting the inside of the guide plate or top of the pushrod hole in the head?

[Va68goat]

Will,

Here is the build sheet. I don't know the answer to any of your questions. Maybe Paul can chime in. I did see a streak on one of the pushrods. Here are a couple of marks that are on two different pushrods. I don't know if thats enough to cause the ticking or not.

[Will]

OK, my question about lobe lift needs to be cleared up and you need to figure out/verify what lift you're actually seeing at the valve with the rockers you're using, what the actual coil bind height is with the retainers you're using, and what clearance you have before the retainer contacts the valve guide.

Those marks on the pushrods don't look like something I'd expect to see if the pushrod was rubbing on the head or inside of the guide plate...?

I wish you lived near me, I have the tools to test all of this except the coil bind height of the spring.

Take a spring and retainer assembly to a machine shop and have them test/verify pressures on the seat, pressure open at max valve lift and coil bind height with the retainer you're using.

Verify your installed height. Best done with a spring seat micrometer like this one but can also be done roughly with a caliper.



Get a set of lightweight checking springs and install them under your retainer. Check your retainer to guide clearance using a magnetic base stand for a dial indicator or a fixture for the dial indicator that screws into a valve cover bolt hole.

You can also verify the lobe lift of your cam with a dial indicator. Measure off the lifter. Zero the dial indicator when the lifter is on the base circle then rotate the engine 'til you see the max reading on the indicator.

[grivera]

I’m sure Paul will chime in and clarify the valve train unknowns

[Formulajones]

Enough info was provided to figure out these questions.

Lobe lift is just valve lift divided by the rocker ratio used, in this case 1.65.

With .616 intake lift divided by 1.65 you get a .373" lobe.
With .621 exhaust lift divided by 1.65 you get a .376" lobe.

And no, I'm not sure why anyone would think that's too much lift for a street car. I've run that type of lift on the street for decades with no ill affect, no spring changes, nothing.

As far as coil bind questions that spec was given at .830" so the springs even with a 1.65 rocker are .209" away from coil bind at their closest.

And with an install height of 1.735" and 1.750" I'd be highly doubtful that a retainer is making any contact with the guide, even if a positive seal installed.
Worth checking for piece of mind but doubt you'll find anything here. If Paul set those heads up I'd be confident they are spot on.

I agree with Paul, 6200 rpm is nothing for a 455 and should have no affect on valve train durability or stability.
Your witness marks on the original rockers however may have something to do with it, and from there the issue may have never went away even with a rocker change and more valve adjustments. Unfortunately now that they have been removed and changed there is no real way to tell if the witness marked rockers correspond to those pushrods.
At this point I'd just spend the money on a good one piece thick wall pushrod, replace them, adjust the rockers the way Paul explains, and move on with it.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Here are a few pics of the other rockers that were on the motor. There are some marks on there but some say it looks more like wrench marks than witness marks from a clearance issue. Some people mentioned that the polylock nut also may have left a mark because depending on how the polylock is tightened, the point of the nut may have some interference with the rocker. Mind you, I'm new to these cars so I'm going on people that mave much more knowledge than I have.

[gtofreek]

Look, I'm not going to get into a hypothetical debate over what could or couldn't have happened. Until I see exactly what happened and why, we can debate this for the next year and not get anywhere. But that doesn't help Joe any. At this point, I just need to see the engine and figure this out. There are just way too many variables in a build like this.

Were the springs coil binding? NO WAY. I routinely check this on EVERY set of heads I do and on every spring. I DON'T take the catalogs word for it on the spring specs.

Was the retainer hitting the seal and valve guide? NO WAY. Again, refer to my statement above.

Were the pistons hitting the valves? I don't see how that is possible without valve timing being seriously changed. It had a LOT of P-V clearance when I checked that.

All I know is after looking at the video of the last dyno pull, the engine at idle was not making any noticeable noises and was idling smooth. That pull also did not show any signs of floating valves, nor did it nose over on power or sound like it floated valves. It was still making over 500 HP at 6200, and not dropping off fast like it would if it floated the valves. Even if the lifters pumped up, they would have only pushed the valve about .070" off it's seat so that's not enough to hit pistons. Not when you have over .200" P-V clearance. Actually, closer to 1/4".

When I pulled the valve cover to look things over before I shipped it, there were no loose rockers.

Did the gas station have a load of bad gas? Who knows.

Did the shop that got the engine running for Joe put old gas in it to get it running? I don't know.

So at this point we can all guess until we are blue in the face but until I tear into it, I'm not going to comment on this anymore.

[Va68goat]

Will,

Thanks for your response. I think your suggestions may exceed my mechanical abilities..hahaha. I've been speaking to Paul and hopefully we can come to agreement to make this right. Paul has been very responsive and takes every call I make and answers every text I send. I don't know if I want to spend more money on another machine shop when I've already spent money for that. I would trust Paul more than I would anyone around here in Virginia that I know of.

[Va68goat]

Paul,

The shop that I took it to did not put old gas. I got the gas 10 minutes before I got to the shop in a brand new gas container that wasn't used before.

[gtofreek]

OK, I wasn't accusing, just stating hypothetical possibilities. That's all. That's why I hate hypothetical questions.

[Formulas]

What comes to my mind is those crane rockers they are entry level
Perhaps your over traveling them the rocker stops pushrod continues to push and pushrod bends you come along and put new rocker arms on a engine that has bent pushrods still notice something isnt right pull it apart again and find bent pushrods

There is only so many things that can bend a pushrod, valve being able to travel the lift distance without binding on anything that parimeter seems to be good

Spring pressure and RPM demands to high on a lesser pushrod

And rocker travel this is why some stamped steel rockers are long slot to be able to travel the lift distance

Any given rocker may be rated for a max lift this rating also depends on where the rocker is sitting before lift starts

.