[mysticmissle]

3.25'' main and 4.21'' stroke right?

[chuckies76ta]

IA2 505 cu in 3” mains 4.25 stroke 20w50 Amsoil Straight shot oiling. Crank. 65 psi startup 30 psi hot. Currently 60 # pump. Spin to 7k. Thanks

[steve25]

Opp’s!
Coffee hadn’t kicked in yet.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

Curious: So if engine being spun to say 7200 rpm, 60 psi pump still or would you go 80 psi?

I spun mine to 8000+rpm with 65psi oil pressure. Zero issues

[mysticmissle]

Brian i think i saw on FB you ran 5-20 oil with ''loose'' clearances, what was your idle pressure at temp and after a pass or dyno pull? how much power do you think the light oil freed up? what oil are you running, The LAT or gibbs or?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by wh33lman

Actually they are a very early version of the Performer RPM that is 87cc.
Between the block decked and heads shaved, the Venolia pistons had to be shaved down to lower compression to 11.5:1.

Motor spent most of its life in a 1975 Firebird Pro Street car (2800lbs., 4:11 gears, tube chassis, big tire, CC290B solid cam). So I had to make some changes to use in my 81 TA street car.

If its in a street car now its safe to assume it wont be raced or spun over 6000-6500 rpm... if thats the case then why would it want or need an 80psi pump... or 20/50 oil?

If the rpms are ~6000 and the car will be used mostly as a street car, stick with the 60psi pump and maybe consider shimming it for a little more psi. If using in spring/fall cooler temps, use an oil weight that provides good hot/cold psi, 10/30 or 10/40 should be perfectly fine.

The best option for this questions would be to ask the builder who built the engine what he suggests for a pump and oil weight, but then weigh that answer just like the others here & use what works best for the intended purpose of the car. Excessive pump psi &/or oil weight has no benefit to an engine that doesnt need it.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

Brian i think i saw on FB you ran 5-20 oil with ''loose'' clearances, what was your idle pressure at temp and after a pass or dyno pull? how much power do you think the light oil freed up? what oil are you running, The LAT or gibbs or?

15-20, engine never real gets hot 130 was it. Gibbs oil. Saw 15hp vs break-in oil.
I'm not recommending doing what we did, just letting people know we did it.

[mysticmissle]

That is a great point, that you were running at 130* thanks

[wh33lman]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

3.25'' main and 4.21'' stroke right?

Yes.

With the stock 4-core rad, Eheads, northwind intake, it runs cool...has no problem staying at the 185° thermostat spec.

I set the rev limiter at 5500 rpm.

Previous builder really screwed me... didn't seal the holes when using the 2-piece Vitron RMS seal, mains were out or round, rings and bearings wore out after 300 miles. But oil pressure was good at 60lbs. on mechanical gauge... mostly 20W50. He is blaming everything on oil starvation, but I found out later he lost all his experienced staff, was not doing work in-house, and the guy assembling was not experienced, and I waited a year

New shop corrected everything, documented everything, did a complete balance...all in just 1 month.

[chiefbigb]

My issues with 60 psi pumps and loose clearance is when the oil temp gets hot on a hot day the pressure at idle is scary. Maybe 15 psi. 80 psi pump 25 to 30. My experience is you won't see 80 psi on the high side with those conditions either.

[wh33lman]

So far the count is
60lb. pump - 7
80lb. pump - 4
...and 1- 60lb. pump shimmed to 70lb.

Let's see if I can provide more info from the build sheet

1975 455 + .030" bore - 3.25" main 4.210" stroke
Align honed - High Spec 3.439" "Align hone was out of round, Drill and Cut Caps, Align hone cam tunnel"
Clevite P-Series Main Bearings MS-667P-10
Mains Clearance - .0032"-0033"
Rod Br? Clearance - .0026"-.0027"
Piston -Venolia 4.175" Hone to 4.182" Desired Clearance .007" Deck Plate 100lb.
Rings - Hastings Piston Rings Engine Piston Ring Set 2M5529060; 4.185" Bore

I normally run 20W50 unless there is none in stock,
And I have 2- 60lb pumps - 1 setup with a stock pickup my stock pan, and another with a Milodon pickup for my new Milodon 30355 7 quart pan

[wh33lman]

So far the count is
60lb. pump - 7
80lb. pump - 4
...and 1- 60lb. pump shimmed to 70lb.

I appreciate all the input and experiences...

Let's see if I can provide more info from the builder's sheet...

1975 455 + .030" bore - 3.25" main 4.210" stroke
Align honed - High Spec 3.439" "Align hone was out of round, Drill and Cut Caps, Align hone cam tunnel"

Clevite P-Series Main Bearings MS-667P-10
Mains Clearance - .0032"-0033"
Rod Bearings - Clevite CB-758P-10
Rod Bearing Clearance - .0026"-.0027"

Piston -Venolia 4.175" Hone to 4.182" Desired Clearance .007" Deck Plate 100lb.
Rings - Hastings Piston Rings Engine Piston Ring Set 2M5529060; 4.185" Bore
Wiseco Piston SpiroLox Rings CS25

I normally run 20W50 unless there is none in stock, then 10W40
And I have 2- 60lb pumps - 1 setup with a stock pickup my stock pan, and another with a Milodon pickup for my new Milodon 30355 7 quart pan

[steve25]

Your crank is cross drilled in the mains unlike a factory 3.00” main crank.

With the factory 3.00” crank the rods only get directly oiled ( hole to hole line up ) for 1% of the rotation time.

This is why all factory bearings for the 3.00” cranks are fully grooved.

With the cross drilling in the factory 3.250” cranks the rods get oiled twice as often directly,
and then on top of that the factory bearings that go in the block side are half grooved which yet further serve to get oil to the rod bearings.

So once again I say for what your doing with the motor that a 60 psi pump shimmed to 70 psi if you care to is totally fine, in fact on one of my 455 motors once I started to run two remote 2 Qt filters ( far less oil pressure restriction. ) I took the shim out, and this was on the solid roller cammed super charged motor you see in my photo.

On a drag car a 7 Qt pan is not needed since there comes a rpm with any motor where the oil volume needed just levels off and any unused volume at that point only makes for back pressure on the pump and this then can lead to spark scatter.

I guess if you have it use it as long as it keeps the oil further away from the crank then a factory pan, in fact if I had It I would run it with only 6 Qts in it once I snuck up on that level by confirming it was safe.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by wh33lman

So far the count is
60lb. pump - 7
80lb. pump - 4
...and 1- 60lb. pump shimmed to 70lb.

Let's see if I can provide more info from the build sheet

1975 455 + .030" bore - 3.25" main 4.210" stroke
Align honed - High Spec 3.439" "Align hone was out of round, Drill and Cut Caps, Align hone cam tunnel"
Clevite P-Series Main Bearings MS-667P-10
Mains Clearance - .0032"-0033"
Rod Br? Clearance - .0026"-.0027"
Piston -Venolia 4.175" Hone to 4.182" Desired Clearance .007" Deck Plate 100lb.
Rings - Hastings Piston Rings Engine Piston Ring Set 2M5529060; 4.185" Bore

I normally run 20W50 unless there is none in stock,
And I have 2- 60lb pumps - 1 setup with a stock pickup my stock pan, and another with a Milodon pickup for my new Milodon 30355 7 quart pan

Just curious but where are you located?.... Edit- nevermind, just saw canada, that supports the info below even more-- Do you drive in super hot temps like a desert or extreme south or more normal temps with cool spring/fall driving? Do you drag race or run long endurance races at high rpms? Im guessing not since you said its a street car now... so I dont see any reason for a 80lb pump &/or 20/50 oil. What is the reasoning for that? Since you said its a street car, this would probably get better responses in the street section as opposed to the race section. I could be wrong but I also dont think those stated clearances are considered "loose" like a race motor build.

If a lighter weight oil provides adequate pressure then that is perfectly fine & usually better to use... especially for a street driven car that stays under 4000 rpm for 90% of its use. There is no benefit to using thicker than needed oil or higher than needed psi pumps. I would use a 60 and shim it if it makes you feel better, then whatever pump you decide on using, try a thinner oil like 10/30 or 10/40, if psi when hot is good, use that unless theres a legitimate reason to use 20/50.

I have the same milodon 7qt pan, its very nice but as mentioned I run 6qts in it, i marked the dipstick at a fresh 6qts & have never had any oil starvation issues at the track or on the street, but it does make changing starters a lot harder than a 6qt pan, at least with big 2" headers.

[wh33lman]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Just curious but where are you located?.... Edit- nevermind, just saw canada, that supports the info below even more-- Do you drive in super hot temps like a desert or extreme south or more normal temps with cool spring/fall driving? Do you drag race or run long endurance races at high rpms? Im guessing not since you said its a street car now... so I dont see any reason for a 80lb pump &/or 20/50 oil. What is the reasoning for that? Since you said its a street car, this would probably get better responses in the street section as opposed to the race section. I could be wrong but I also dont think those stated clearances are considered "loose" like a race motor build.

If a lighter weight oil provides adequate pressure then that is perfectly fine & usually better to use... especially for a street driven car that stays under 4000 rpm for 90% of its use. There is no benefit to using thicker than needed oil or higher than needed psi pumps. I would use a 60 and shim it if it makes you feel better, then whatever pump you decide on using, try a thinner oil like 10/30 or 10/40, if psi when hot is good, use that unless theres a legitimate reason to use 20/50.

I have the same milodon 7qt pan, its very nice but as mentioned I run 6qts in it, i marked the dipstick at a fresh 6qts & have never had any oil starvation issues at the track or on the street, but it does make changing starters a lot harder than a 6qt pan, at least with big 2" headers.

Even with the 3:08 gears it runs at about 2800-3000 cruising on the highway with the T350 and a 2800-3000 stall. The 20W50 was recommended by the previous owner.
It came with a 7qt pan, but it never fit right (leaked) over the rear main (1/2" gap) and had elongated holes (leaked) for the timing cover because he ran a motor plate. So I replaced it since I already had the pump and pickup for it. He said it never leaked for him, but as I found out later, it had not been tracked in 30 years, just trailered to shows.
I use Dougs headers (1 7/8") , but have no problem re&re the mini-starter.
I am a bit paranoid as both his recommended transmission guy and machine shop guy totally screwed me and I had to send both to other shops to be rebuilt. I have not been able to enjoy the car for 5 years.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by wh33lman

Even with the 3:08 gears it runs at about 2800-3000 cruising on the highway with the T350 and a 2800-3000 stall. The 20W50 was recommended by the previous owner.
It came with a 7qt pan, but it never fit right (leaked) over the rear main (1/2" gap) and had elongated holes (leaked) for the timing cover because he ran a motor plate. So I replaced it since I already had the pump and pickup for it. He said it never leaked for him, but as I found out later, it had not been tracked in 30 years, just trailered to shows.
I use Dougs headers (1 7/8") , but have no problem re&re the mini-starter.
I am a bit paranoid as both his recommended transmission guy and machine shop guy totally screwed me and I had to send both to other shops to be rebuilt. I have not been able to enjoy the car for 5 years.

OK, so the prev owner didnt own the car with the current engine build and may or may not know much about oil... if its a street car, in canada, with average tolerances... 20/50 is not needed, especially with a 80psi pump. If its a race car with loose tolerances then by all means use a thicker oil. Being in canada you probably drivbe the car in 40-50 degree temps, that 20/50 is not doing the engine any favors at cold start up or when running, cold start causes the most wear & too thick of oil or too high of psi creates more stress on the pump shaft & dist gear that a thinner weight for the engine/temps/usage.

What MPH is that 2800-3000 highway cruise at? Seems kinda high rpm for average highway speeds with a 3.08 gear unless you have very short tires or a converter that is slipping a lot. I have 3.08s in one car & it will cruise at 65-70 at about 2500 rpms, have 3.23 in another car that does about 2500 at 60. but even at those rpms there is not justification for 20/50 oil in a street car in cool temps.

The milodon pan uses the older style 3 tab rear U seal that is notorious for leaking, mine leaked there too at first, the remedy is to use a 1/4" cork gasket & a good sealer like ultrablack, once I did that the leak was gone. Its been mentioned on here a few times.

My starter issues with the 7qt pan are probably because i have round port 2" super comp headers that come very close to the pan kickout, even with a mini starter the header has to be loosened & swung out a bit to remove the starter... the other side is fine for full size filter though.

Just wanted to provide some info on the oil weight & pump based on my experience with this living in colder climates as well as what my very experienced builder suggests for oil weight in a street/strip car.

[wh33lman]

I mentioned earlier in the thread the previous owner's combo. He was upset that I changed it to suit my combo.
But I was not wanting a big tire pro street show car just to win trophies.

It is probably running closer to 75 mph as the tranny guy ripped off my proper speedometer gears. I need to verify with GPS., but our local speed signs show about an 8 mph difference at 25 mph.

I didn't run 20W50 in spring and fall... only summer. It gets fairly hot in Toronto summers...but I agree 10W40 is plenty thick.

I also made my own 1/4" thick 1" wide cork seal...as per Cliff Ruggles advice... for the pan.

If you had seen the damage done after just 300 miles since the first machine shop, you would understand my caution.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by steve25

Your crank is cross drilled in the mains unlike a factory 3.00” main crank.

With the factory 3.00” crank the rods only get directly oiled ( hole to hole line up ) for 1% of the rotation time.

This is why all factory bearings for the 3.00” cranks are fully grooved.

With the cross drilling in the factory 3.250” cranks the rods get oiled twice as often directly,
and then on top of that the factory bearings that go in the block side are half grooved which yet further serve to get oil to the rod bearings.

So once again I say for what your doing with the motor that a 60 psi pump shimmed to 70 psi if you care to is totally fine, in fact on one of my 455 motors once I started to run two remote 2 Qt filters ( far less oil pressure restriction. ) I took the shim out, and this was on the solid roller cammed super charged motor you see in my photo.

On a drag car a 7 Qt pan is not needed since there comes a rpm with any motor where the oil volume needed just levels off and any unused volume at that point only makes for back pressure on the pump and this then can lead to spark scatter.

I guess if you have it use it as long as it keeps the oil further away from the crank then a factory pan, in fact if I had It I would run it with only 6 Qts in it once I snuck up on that level by confirming it was safe.

This is the oil pan I run. Steffs best 7 quart, 8" deep pan that fits stock A bodies. 6 1/2 quarts in the pan, rest in the filter for 7 quarts. Atmospheric pressure is what pushes oil into the pump inlet.
Never head of only one quart of oil causing spark scatter .

https://stefs.com/shop/1730/

[steve25]

I was not referring to the 7 th Qt of oil making for that condition.
I meant it at times can be purely related to excess oil volume trying to be moved into the passage ways.

[chiefbigb]

I like that pan. Wonder how much stroke it has clearance for?
?