[shaker455]

John,
I believe Sam has an Eagle cast stock 4.210" replacement.
Jeff

[glhs#116]

I did. Right up until two years ago I had Zero Oil Pressure and trashed the journals on it. Paul found me a nice Pontiac factory N 455 crank that only needed .010 under to clean up. He balanced and prepped it for me. That’s what is in there.

Sam

[TedRamAirII]

I wonder if you pulled the Fuel Pump, you could peek at the chain/front galley plugs.

[wbnapier]

Any updates?

[glhs#116]

So, I did a few little things today just for my own sanity. The first is that since the tick just seems to behave so much like an exhaust leak I wanted to check my downpipe connection where I put in a gasket. I already put the carbon header gaskets on my manifold. Actually the gasket looked like it was sealing the downpipe really well. Listened around again, it's definitely front of engine.

The other thing was this crazy business where it goes away under decel. I mean, completely. Unfortunately Qatar is flat but I did jack up the rear axle with it running at idle against the trans (parking brake on). Full height at the back I feel it was a little quieter but my iPhone on the valve cover says only 3 degrees of downward tilt. Not nearly enough to simulate braking deceleration. If I could solidly confirm that it goes away when everything thrusts forward then I would know for sure it is something spinning or reciprocating that contacts something else when it shifts backwards..

So.. There ya go. Not a lot of progress. I'm really churning my mental gears on this every day. When driving you don't normally hear it at all. Spins 2750rpm on the highway sweet as anything all day.

Anyway..

Sam

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Got to remeber that backing off, throttle blades shut, pistons/rods/crank get lifted up instead of everything getting pushed down. That's at rpm's above idle speed.

Clay

[dmac]

When you brake, oil sloshes forward and may be quieting whatever you hear. I'm not sure if actual contact needs to be made to make a sound if two parts are close at one point. Oil could get in between the parts, and then squeezed out. Even throwing water against solid material makes a sound. Even the fuel pump eccentric or timing chain having a tiny 'bounce' or bit of slack at engine speed- especially on deceleration might not show up on install, or a slightly flat spot on the eccentric itself. More oil splashing up front of the engine could be enough to quiet it. And someone stated something about a pinhole leak in the header pipe to flange weld as a possibility, not just a header gasket.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by dmac

When you brake, oil sloshes forward and may be quieting whatever you hear. I'm not sure if actual contact needs to be made to make a sound if two parts are close at one point. Oil could get in between the parts, and then squeezed out. Even throwing water against solid material makes a sound. Even the fuel pump eccentric or timing chain having a tiny 'bounce' or bit of slack at engine speed- especially on deceleration might not show up on install, or a slightly flat spot on the eccentric itself. More oil splashing up front of the engine could be enough to quiet it. And someone stated something about a pinhole leak in the header pipe to flange weld as a possibility, not just a header gasket.

I used a header gasket for good sealing. It’s Ram Air manifolds

Sam

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Got to remeber that backing off, throttle blades shut, pistons/rods/crank get lifted up instead of everything getting pushed down. That's at rpm's above idle speed.

Clay

That’s a cool fact. But lift throttle won’t make the noise go. You have to be braking. And braking just a tiny bit harder than “gentle”. But it doesn’t have to be panic stop or anything. Basically “normal” braking for the sort of person who hurries is enough.

That’s why I was interested if tilt would do the same.

Sam

[HO Kenny]

I doubt it’s the camshaft because I think the cam gets pushed forward on acceleration due to the distributor gears.

[Richie Hoffman]

make sure starter bendix drive gear isn’t hitting flywheel seen that a couple of times

[Va68goat]

Hey Sam,

I think I've realized that I have PTSD after reading your thread. I feel for you. I had a 2 year knocking problem with my engine and it turned out to be something that the builder overlooked. Apparently when the builder assembled the engine he failed to secure the pickup tube and the engine suffered a catastrophic failure on the dyno. The builder failed to inspect and measure the piston skirts and after 2 years, it was located. Turns out the #5 piston collapsed .40. Maybe there will be something in this thread that can help you.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...816829&page=74

The guys on this forum were awesome and helped me out a lot. Keep staying focused and you'll get it!

[dataway]

I know right. I've been following this thread the whole time .... it's now "our" problem too

[Cliff R]

"Apparently when the builder assembled the engine he failed to secure the pickup tube and the engine suffered a catastrophic failure on the dyno."

I got "lazy" ONE TIME and just grabbed the MIG and welded the pick-up to the oil pump. I'd read countless times where that's what most "builders" do and they will be fine.

The engine came back in for "freshening" up about 5 years later (full race) and the oil pump pick-up was laying it the bottom of the pan. The weld job was fine, it took a BIG chunk off the pump when it cut loose.

I went back to effectively securing them by either drilling a hole and tapping for a hardened screws or making a metal strap and welding it to the pickup then attaching it under one of the oil pump cover bolts.......Cliff

[Va68goat]

dataway,

I can't help but read the updates on this thread. As much time as guys from the forum spent helping me. Though I can't offer any solutions to the problem because of my lack of experience, I learn a lot.

Cliff ,
Oh, I'm sure Paul learned as much of a lesson as I did. The way you secure the oil pick up tube sounds much more secure that using Loctite like Paul used. After the failed dyno run, he welded it. When the time comes, I'll have someone do the same as what you described.

[glhs#116]

OK. So I'm trying to follow the only clues I have here. In brief:

• Reliable -- the tick always happens warmed up pretty loud idle to low RPM EXCEPT UNDER HARDISH DECEL
• Persistent -- I've reviewed videos with the old heads and previous cams. Tick was the same
• Inaudible at cruise and higher RPMs
• Inaudible at strongish decel (must be braking -- coasting is not enough)
• Stronger under accel and right turn
• Weaker under decel and left turn
• Not an accessory. Persists when belts off
• Not from trans. Persists when torque converter pushed back
• Sounds like from front damper / front oil pan area. Damper newish and spins true and has correct timing mark orientation (hasn't spun)
• It's cam speed. One tick every other crank revolution
• Doesn't seem to change with pulling any plug wires so unlikely rod, piston, crank, etc..

Now here's the wildcard. I've been through different heads, cams, lifters springs, but always my same trusty HS roller rockers. There was ONE time the tick was gone, gone, gone. That was when I had a poor combination of spring keepers and retainers that resulted in a sunken valve stem tip. The roller was still on the tip but the bottom of the rocker arms would lightly contact the retainers through the range of motion. This was just before my dropped valve.

Anyway. The point is that when I put those springs in the noise was gone. There was a much louder sewing machine sound because of the rocker arms sliding gently on the retainers at some points but there was NO TICK. That was the only time. At the time I was thinking the damper in the old springs was responsible for the tick. But since the Edelbrock head springs don't even have a damper that's clearly wrong. Now I'm thinking that there are only two explanations left:
• A noisy tip on one rocker that got quiet when the retainer / rocker arm contact slightly unloaded the roller
• Well, actually that's all I could think of..

So, yesterday I took out all the rockers and inspected them carefully. All felt good in the fulcrum and tip rollers apart from an intake rocker on #2. The tip roller has a definite "gritty" spot in its rotational travel. Not terrible, but noticeable. So I swapped it over with #8 intake and put them back thinking at least if that's the cause I would hear the sound from somewhere else.

Nadda. Zip. Nothing. The sound is completely unchanged.. I've gone back and listened to those videos again. When I had the new Crower springs on the old 197 heads with those poorly combined retainers/keepers there was no trace of the tick. Every other video I can find in the past two years with the old or new heads, old or new springs, any of several sets of pushrods and lifters, several cams, more than one oil pump, new eccentric, different fuel pump, same tick.

Just thought I would share.

[steve25]

Refresh my memory Sam, where your Cam Bearing ever replaced during the whole mess time with the block ?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by steve25

Refresh my memory Sam, where your Cam Bearing ever replaced during the whole mess time with the block ?

Steve,

I replaced the cam bearings during the rebuild. The old ones looked OK. Those new ones have seen a few cam swaps by now but they still feel like the same clearance. Wouldn't they have to be loose as hell to make a noise?

I also replaced the cam thrust plate at some point without any effect on the noise. I think it was when I replaced the eccentric. No difference before or after.

Sam

[johnta1]

but always my same trusty HS roller rockers.

What valve covers do you use?

Why not try a set of stock rockers and see if noise is still there?

This makes noise at idle?
If so try taking valve cover off on that side and see if noise is still there.
Also observe what the valve train looks like or does?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Why not try a set of stock rockers and see if noise is still there?

I was thinking that but I don't have a set. I would basically have to either order a new set of HS or still pay a bunch for the stupid stamped steel "roller tip" deals because of my 7/16" studs.

Anyway, moving the only rocker that seemed at all suspect didn't move or change the noise. Also, the noise is the same with valve covers off and all rockers look / act fine.

I wish it were quieter but it is, "Hey, what's wrong with your car?" loud. Certainly doesn't seem to have changed in a few months of daily commuting with 2750rpm cruise..

Sam