[Jack Gifford]

Is there a Pontiac "Morse" chain set (OEM "silent" style) available that's actually made by Morse?

[400 Lemans]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...oAAOSwvAhbW0nU Paul Spotts has them.

[Jack Gifford]

Thank you.

[Cliff R]

I have noticed in recent years that the chains supplied on many of the 3/4" wide factory timing sets no longer say "Morse" right on them. I suspect some outsourcing may be going on and why a few folks have noted on here about seeing a butt-ton of chain stretch using stock timing sets, or they are just regurgitating old information or something they heard or saw someplace.

Matters not, but I started going on Ebay and sourcing out "old stock" timing sets with the heat treated metal gears and real Morse chains on them. I had a nice stockpile of them but have been contacted by Forum members and have sold all but two sets which I'm keeping for my own use.

These are the best timing sets available for these engines IMHO. I have one on my current 455 and it's been in service since 2009 and has a LOT of running time on it. Coincidentally I had to remove the timing cover for a coolant leak a few months ago and the timing set looked just like the day installed with very little slop in the chain and no visible wear on the gears.

Despite not being digested well on here I've mentioned several times that back in 2000 when I built my first 455 using parts supplied by a well known Pontiac supplier I put a Rollmaster timing set on it. I like the 9 keyway deal and much easier to degree the cam vs the Mopar offset keyway deal. I ran the bag off that engine, driving the car daily on the street and racing it at every opportunity on the summer months. Around 2004-2005 I was racing at Dragway 42 here in Ohio and my engine started running poorly and the car slowed WAY down. I did a quick check of things and found nothing obviously wrong. I just figured it was getting tired so I pulled the engine to "freshen" it up. The bores looked perfect, rings were fine, bearings all good, camshaft was mint and no measureable wear anyplace, but the Rollmaster timing chain had a LOT of slop in it! It was so loose I could literally walk it right off the gears! Not sure how or why it decided to fail and it really didn't give a lot of warning or seem to happen slowly over time, but nonetheless is was DONE.

I went back to my factory type timing sets and never used one again on my own engine. Now keep in mind when you read this that we do NOT get a lot of negative feedback on these aftermarket roller timing sets. It is quite rare for anyone to put tens of thousands of miles on them to see if they will go the distance. Lots of folks run roller cams these days as well which takes some load off the chain. Not condemning those parts lots of builders use them with good success, just pointing out the fact that I found the limitations with the one I purchased and installed, nothing more, nothing less.......Cliff

[Half-Inch Stud]

I spied the Stock Chain & Gears design to be the lowest surface loads than any Bike-Chain design.

Teeth loads, pin loads are more than 2x less load, and closer to 4x lower load than a 2-row Bike Chain.

Suffer materials softness for stock chains, and my experience super sloppy stock chains that some slap the timing cover. I use the 2-row with little slop after several re-uses.

I came across hardeded gears awhile back but all stock style chains had been worn. I think the tooth design needs optimized to not-gall the gear during onramp & offramp.

---> is there known-hardened Stock Timing sets out there for a fair price?

@CLIFF was the Rollmaster a 2-row Bike Chain? (( ive only ever seen mild 2-row slop, yet mild slop was scary enough to jump time to me ))

[Cliff R]

I've pulled down scores and scores of engines with stock type timing sets, most with unknown mileage but for sure non were under 100,000 miles. Of course you will see some chain stretch. The ONLY ones I've actually seen fail were the early nylon coated top sprocket variety, and even those made it to at least 80,000 if not 100,000 miles. They nylon coated variety is actually a great idea in theory as they are truly silent and absorb harmonics created between the crank and camshaft. I've know several "old school" racers (very successful ones) that used them exclusively on their full drag "race" engines and claimed they smoothed things out and made a bit more power than other varieties.

The highest mileage engine I rebuilt where I knew the exact use was from my dad's 1991 Chevy 3/4 ton P/U. It was NOT a roller cammed engine as GM didn't hit the HD truck engines with roller cams in the 1987 and newer blocks till around 1995. So dragging a flat cam it made it over 200,000 miles of heavy duty use before it cracked a piston and needed to be rebuild. The timing set was the narrower 5/8" wide version, not the 3/4" wide that I use and recommend here. It had a lot of "slop" in it, but hadn't failed and left some marks on the gears.

Folks condemn link belt chains but most have 10 to 20 times the miles on them that one of these engines will ever see. Cripe, most of these engines are lucky to see 1000 miles a year, so even the "bottom" shelf double roller timing sets with soft iron gears and fixed roller chain will go that distance w/o issue, and that's why we don't get a lot of accurate feedback on this particular topic......FWIW.

The good timing gears with the heat treated sprockets are difficult to obtain. I've grabbed up every one that's shown up on Ebay in the past couple of years. Even with that said the Cloyes, Dyna Gear and Melling sets with the iron sprockets would last a long time, but you are going to see some marks in the gears as they tend to be a bit softer than the ones in the pics below.......Cliff

[Cliff R]

Now for the bad news. Just a few days ago one of my customers was assembling his Olds engine and had sourced out a new Cloyes stock type timing set for it. He emailed me and said that it doesn't fit well so can't use it. He sent some pics of the chain and called Cloyes about it. I haven't seen these markings but it may be "offshore" production of some sort. I've suspected that may happen at some point as just about everything with this industry sooner of later gets made in Mexico, China, Taiwan, Korea or someplace in the Middle East........Cliff

[PAUL K]

Cloyes still makes quality, fairly expensive timing chain sets. But their opening price point sets for Olds and Buick are outsourced and the same as I get from Mellings (non-performance).

[TedRamAirII]

How do these compare? https://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-Cams-3...gAAOSwr~lYphtl

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-1967-P....c100667.m2042

[punkin]

I hope I don't stir anything up here and honestly, I'm not sure if this is a wise idea for street use but I'm using a gear drive. I'm trying to slowly convert an old mostly race car back to the street. Changing the timing gear/chain is still very low on the list.

[64speed]

The Lunati one I installed in my engine seemed to be good quality. Billet gears and a really heavy chain

[HWYSTR455]

I've used the Cloyes true roller sets many times, have 3 key ways, are usually within a degree or two, but still usually require a key to get it where you want it. They are roller, so usually see about a 2-3 max degree slop at 50k+ miles, but I would change them at 100-120k miles anyway, so they worked for me.

I had the option to go Morse on my new 535 build, but my builder (Spotts) chose a double roller. I can find out which one, and why he chose that, but suspect it was for a good reason.


.

[64speed]

The Lunati has 9 keyways

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I haven't seen these markings but it may be "offshore" production of some sort. I've suspected that may happen at some point as just about everything with this industry sooner of later gets made in Mexico, China, Taiwan, Korea or someplace in the Middle East........Cliff

That’s a maker’s mark stamping. I have been trying to look it up myself. My Melling set had a link chain with the same mark. The three triangles above the three squares kind of make an “M” so I wouldn’t be surprised to learn it is Morse or Melling. I doubt a cheap knock-off would copy that since it’s an extra unnecessary operation.

Sam

[Cliff R]

Not sure about the stamping but don't underestimate the offshore stuff as far as making it look like the real thing. To get and boost sales the Chinese are doing a very good job these days of cloning just about everything, including putting trade mark stampings on them, although I'm sure you are correct about a timing chain as there wouldn't be that big of a market and no need so copy the stamp then have it end up being sold in a Cloyes box right to start with.

I haven't seen a factory type timing chain in some time that had a "MORSE" stamping right on the links but most of my old-stock sets has it.

I'd add here that buying "old stock" isn't always a home-run. I ended up with one chain from as set made in the 1970's that says "JAPAN" right on the links.

I go on these threads to educate folks, not to "push" factory timing sets. Just about everyone in this hobby, engine builder or hobbyist and everyone in between still thinks that a "double roller" timing chain and "high volume" oil pump are "upgrades" for your engine build. Actually nothing could be further from the truth depending on the parts you actually choose. Many "low" end timing sets aren't that great and for most applications about all a high volume/high pressure oil pump does is work the distributor gear and oil pump drive shaft much harder, plus it robs a little power from the assembly........FWIW.....Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Not sure about the stamping but don't underestimate the offshore stuff as far as making it look like the real thing. To get and boost sales the Chinese are doing a very good job these days of cloning just about everything, including putting trade mark stampings on them, although I'm sure you are correct about a timing chain as there wouldn't be that big of a market and no need so copy the stamp then have it end up being sold in a Cloyes box right to start with.

I haven't seen a factory type timing chain in some time that had a "MORSE" stamping right on the links but most of my old-stock sets has it.

I'd add here that buying "old stock" isn't always a home-run. I ended up with one chain from as set made in the 1970's that says "JAPAN" right on the links.

I go on these threads to educate folks, not to "push" factory timing sets. Just about everyone in this hobby, engine builder or hobbyist and everyone in between still thinks that a "double roller" timing chain and "high volume" oil pump are "upgrades" for your engine build. Actually nothing could be further from the truth depending on the parts you actually choose. Many "low" end timing sets aren't that great and for most applications about all a high volume/high pressure oil pump does is work the distributor gear and oil pump drive shaft much harder, plus it robs a little power from the assembly........FWIW.....Cliff

Agreed, except for the part "all a high volume/high pressure oil pump does is work the distributor gear and oil pump drive shaft much harder, plus it robs a little power from the assembly..." , that I say is 'old school' thinking, or out of habit/mimicking what has been said for many years.

First, all the large tube oil pumps are high volume, and second, many shim the pump to get 65-70 psi anyway. And as stated by Melling themselves, the '60' pump actually makes 50 psi, and the '80' pump make 70. So if you 'blueprint' or 'do the mods' to the pump, there is no difference in psi or volume.

We as Pontiac enthusiasts need to stop pushing that dogma for the sake of the community. Especially now that many are moving to HYD roller setups. Many of the low RPM/idle 'tick' experienced is due to low psi at idle. Newer parts, cranks, rods, etc, use wider clearances, so the actual running oil psi needs the pump output to be compensated.

.

[mgarblik]

I have direct contact with "all things Cloyes" as mentioned in numerous other threads over the years. Our race team consults directly with their engineering team and two engineers in particular. I will bring the questions I see on here directly to them and post accurate, information from the manufacturer and you can take it from there. This will be next week after the PRI show when I can speak to them. I can tell you a few things I do know about Cloyes, over the past few years. Cloyes was bought out a couple years ago by a giant manufacturing conglomerate. The performance "True Roller" catalog was left in tact and still engineering and producing in Paris, AR. For decades, they used a chain made in France and marked, "Renold". For quite a few years, they have been using the chains marked "IWIS" (A German Company with 45 manufacturing plants, producing 40,000,000 components a day) https://www.iwis.com/en-gb/about-us Cloyes doesn't make the chain, but they test and spec. the chain. A $19.00 Cloyes timing set on E-bay doesn't contain the same components as a $279.00 set for the same engine with billet gears and a "Z-series IWIS" chain. That becomes the problem when the two sets are often reviewed as the same because they are both "Cloyes" . The quality name becomes a problem when they sell consumer grade non-performance parts. This will be an interesting discussion to have at PRI. This should be obvious, but when building a performance engine with quality parts, performance camshaft and stiffer than stock springs, a stock or OE quality timing set will only give you minimal service life. This is not an area to cut corners on if you want accurate camshaft timing over the long run. Buy the best quality parts you can afford for the designed purpose and you won't have any failure issues to worry about. Really good parts are available but they cost more and generally are not sold on E-bay, or as part of some engine package. That's because low cost substitutes look basically the same and can be easily slipped into kits to lower the price. There are some terrible timing sets out there under name brands. Had a non-Pontiac, non-Cloyes set, degree 18 degrees off recently. Hole for the locating pin in the wrong position. (Ford).

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...oAAOSwvAhbW0nU Paul Spotts has them.

Anybody bought one of these sets, lately ? If so, does the chain have Morse stamped on it. If not, how can you tell what brand it is ?

Here's a Melling 3-350S set. Has SA gears. S-371 crank. S305 cam.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Throug...IAAOSwItNbSL4S

The Sealed Power KT3350S set appears to have the same components. Assuming it's the same set, made by the same company ???

https://www.amazon.com/Sealed-Power-.../dp/B000C7K2AE

Below are the pics of the Cloyes C3007K set I just bought, Has the same SA gears. The chain has no marking that I saw. Plastic bag has C350 on it. Anybody know if these current Melling, Sealed Power, & Cloyes sets have exactly the same chain ? And if so, are these Chinese junk that will fail quickly ? Or will they just stretch like all the other link & DR chains I ever bought ?

[ponyakr]

Anybody know who makes the Summit True roller sets, & their quality ?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...w/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...w/make/pontiac

I use to buy TRW brand sets & spare chains. Here's a TC350 TRW chain that shoiws to have USA stamped on several links. Don't know who made it. ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRW-TC350-E...YAAOSw2k5dwJlU

Here's a Comp Cams Tc-350 chain, which looks just like the chain in my Cloyes set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-Cams-H...cAAOSwkNFcdTrz

And, here's a Cloyes C350 chain, which I assume is what came in my set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi...gAAOSwMUpcpaii

Lookin at the pics, I see that the outer links of the chain in the Paul Spotts ad have a different shape than most others. They are not oval shaped, like most others. Actually look like they'd be weaker, unless made of much stronger material.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...oAAOSwvAhbW0nU

[Sun Tuned]

Now they wonder why people hoard stuff.

Why is it everything old has to be new again. If they just leave stuff alone. And when they make it “new” again, something ALWAYS gets left out.

What is the deal with all the old stuff that works to be considered worthwhile today having to be “improved” . Old tech is now worthless today. Carbs are so yesterday and nothing but a fuel leak on top of an engine. Hell, impacts now absolutely HAVE to be cordless and have a battery that lasts 8 hours with a charger that can put it back new in 20 minutes.

.... dude! What?...you’re using an actual hammer?!?!?!
Where’s your nail gun??? Who still owns a hammer?!?!?

They never should have quit making the old Tempest 4cylinder chain set. Or we should have bought about 2 train cars full so we could all share today.

This is getting ridiculous. It shouldn’t be this hard.

Rant over. I’m better now, I guess.