[GOAT8U2]

Hey, I am looking for anyone who might have a twin turbo kit on their GTO. I already have the dfi computer and the ability to get the kit started but if someones already out there doing it and has it available, I would look into that route.

Any links or specs would be great.

I plan on doing a 455 with ported aluminum heads and twin TE62 turbos to make around 1000 hp to the wheels.
I would also appreciate any recommendations on which block, parts ect to get it to stay together at that level. I know there are guys on here that have been making big power for a long time so any feedback would be great.

Thanks

Mike

69 GTO Convertible
(Future Twin Turbo)
87 GN

[GOAT8U2]

Hey, I am looking for anyone who might have a twin turbo kit on their GTO. I already have the dfi computer and the ability to get the kit started but if someones already out there doing it and has it available, I would look into that route.

Any links or specs would be great.

I plan on doing a 455 with ported aluminum heads and twin TE62 turbos to make around 1000 hp to the wheels.
I would also appreciate any recommendations on which block, parts ect to get it to stay together at that level. I know there are guys on here that have been making big power for a long time so any feedback would be great.

Thanks

Mike

69 GTO Convertible
(Future Twin Turbo)
87 GN

[Goatman]

No one is making a twin turbo kit for any Pontiac.

Rodney Butler has one.
There is another member here who has one in an F-body.
Marty Palbykin has one, on alcohol and has built another one for a guy with a Catalina.
I am building a twin turbo car as well.

Talk to a member here by the name of Tom Vaught.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Hey, I am looking for anyone who might have a twin turbo kit on their GTO. I already have the dfi computer and the ability to get the kit started but if someones already out there doing it and has it available, I would look into that route.

Agree that any Twin Turbo, Supercharger, etc additions to a Pontiac engine will be custom made.

Quote:

Any links or specs would be great.

You can look at the Nov/Dec 2002 issue of Pontiac
Enthusiast and see photos of Rodney Butlers engine.

I plan on doing a 455 with ported aluminum heads and twin TE62 turbos to make around 1000 hp to the wheels.

You will find that the durability of the engine will be better with a smaller stroke crank. 3.75
or 3.5 stroke much better for durability.


I would also appreciate any recommendations on which block, parts ect to get it to stay together at that level.

Pontiac block lived in Marty Palbykins GTO for three years at 1600 hp without issues. 1000 hp should be ok if motor built right. Use steel caps
and good crank, not cast iron.


I know there are guys on here that have been making big power for a long time so any feedback would be great.

Bruce (Goatman) is well along on his project and
can tell you some of the basics too. Tom V.

[455Bird]

I have a 79TA with a 462 and a TO4B turbo running 7PSI. I pretty much built everything myself and that kept my cost under $900.00. The motor is pretty much stock except the .480 Comp Cam. My project was more of a prototype deal....more like a learning experience! lol! It has though, enabled that car to run right with my low 12 second 69Bird. And she's dead quiet! I was running race gas but since adding water/alcohol injection, I'm now running the same on 91 octane pump gas. I say go for the turbo stuff. It's relatively cheap to do. Well, it was for me anyway. I'm not looking for rediculous times though. 11's are plenty fast for me.

1969 Bird 455
1868 Bird 400
1979 TA Turbocharged/455
1979 TA W-72 400/4speed

[GOAT8U2]

Thanks for the replys guys.
455bird, are you running with fuel injection?
And how did you keep the kit under $1000 when you need a custom set of headers and atleast one turbo? You could package that set up and make a killing.

I have a $1500 dfi and imagine that getting stainless 304 or 321 headers with two turbos, oil lines, inlet plumbing, fmic, fuel system, an intake with a 120mm throttle body would cost me around $9000,not including the 455 build up.

Tom Vaught, I was thinking of doing a stroker with the 455, but do you think the stroker cranks might not like a lot of boost over time?
I would like to get it to as many cubes as possible so that I do not have to run a high amount of boost to reach my goal.

455bird, check this out. http://www.onlygoodstuff.com/
You can easily run 20 psi on 91 oct
(on 8:1 compression )with a large jet in there.

Goatman, hows your set up looking if you do not mind me asking? I know a lot of us like to keep things a secret so we can put the hammer down hard when its all said and done, but I am trying to get my kit mentioned above done so that it will be available to the public some day. We might be able to help each other out with part selections as the place I want to have this done at has done 4 turbo kits now. www.chargedair.com
It will probably take a year to get them to do it but that works for me as I do not have that money right now anyways.

Thanks

69 GTO Convertible
(Future Twin Turbo)
87 GN

[LouisianaGuy]

Why does your turbo setup have to be injected..friend of mine here runs a twin turbo 68 Camaro, full frame all steel, stripped inside and tubbed goes 9.50 on just motor and it uses a Pull through type system..looks kinda funny too carb sets up right where the fan shroud would be..hes got a 4" cowl hood to make it all fit, but man is it quiet and Uber fast, i will ask him if he minds me taking some pics if your interested in seeing what hes got. The manifold is stock and he's made some type of box to bolt on to it for the turbos and all, but it looks weird.But i really dont see why the same kinda set up wouldnt work on our Pontiacs...i actually thought about seeing if he would work me something up using one of those turbos off one of the turbo cars, but i hear tell they are too weak to do any good.
Mike

[Goatman]

LG, EFI is world's ahead of carbs when it comes to forced induction. Carb's can't adjust themselves on the fly, actually, they can't adjust themselves at all. EFI can. The one time your buddy makes a tuning mistake, he'll lose the whole deal.

Goat, I have no problem sharing. My set up is going into a 25.1C or D chassis, so I'm assuming that mock ups or header designs won't be of much use to you. I am also looking to put together a combination that has the ability to get my car (about 2500lbs) into the 6's, when I am ready for it. That equates to roughly 2000HP. I don't know how many "enthusiasts" will want "help" like that. LOL

I would be happy to discuss my plans further if you wish.

Bruce

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[455Bird]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the link to the propane injection! I have read quite a bit about that too and did consider doing that but I decided to try the water/alcohol first. I'm a big proponent of trying many things before settling on something.

As far as doing it cheaply, that was pretty easy. I am not using fancy custom headers but just plain old exhaust manifolds. The turbo (TO4B) set me back 275.00 and the rest of the money was spent on the fuel and exhaust systems. That turbo will only support around 575HP, so I'm not gonna get too crazy. lol! I'm just blowing through a 750 Holley DP and have went as high as 10PSI with no problems. I've built three carb hats too and they all seem to work great. Again, I'm not quite as ambitious as say Goatman as far as speed but for now, I'm very happy with how the car runs. My next project is going to be my 69Bird that already runs low 12's. I'm going to do nothing but add the turbo with basically the same set up as on the TA. I may either use the headers on it or make some of my own. I love to tinker with this stuff! Boost is like nothing I've ever experienced before. I don't have a kit done or anything but the best part of my system is the cost factor. For less than a grand, a guy can do that system and easily drop a second and a half right off the bat. The engine is totally streetable and most people put more than that into their heads and still don't drop their ET as much as adding the turbo. Anyway, good luck on that project!!!

Good luck to you too Bruce!! You are crazy! And that's good! lol!

1969 Bird 455
1868 Bird 400
1979 TA Turbocharged/455
1979 TA W-72 400/4speed

[GoatRider]

Isn't there some significant DANGER in using a "pull thru" carb with a turbo?

If it backfires you have a significant volume of pressurized air/fuel mixture there including inside the compressor housing with all its FAST moving parts. And inside the compressor housing there are gonna be some areas where the pressure is quite a bit higher than the "output boost" right? ...

Or maybe the flame front just can't travel that fast back "upstream?"

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."

[LouisianaGuy]

I misquoted earlier...friends little twin turbo Camaro runs 9.32@142mph, and he is only running 10 lbs of boost total. pretty amazing all in all, says he has about 4000 in the engine with the turbos and all. He made all of his own brackets and the box and all that crap. I know he has blown the intake box off the intake once since he has been playing with it. hes got a little tie down strap over the box now just in case LOL i laughed at that but it would save his hood and new paint if it blew it off again.
I dont really see that there is any more danger in a pull through as opposed to a Blow through system as long as you know what you are doing and dont do anything stupid. His little intake explosion actually happend due to a blown head gasket some how, which ended up cracking a nice aluminum head and blowing the box off, basically think it some how caused a back fire and kaboom lol. Oh and i believe he said he's running a stock bottom end, i for one dont think it will hold up long going that fast but hey who knows, he always runs consistently in the 9s no matter what engine he builds for this car. But Turbos are definatley worth looking into. But dont you have to run lower compression when running a turbo VS running a Belt driven super charger like a paxton or Vortec>? and doesnt it take a signifigant amt of power to run the Super charger VS teh turbos?
Mike

[Goatman]

Yes, turbo;'s generally require 7.5-8:1 compression, but it all depends on the amount of boost. You can get away with a little more compression on a belt driven supercharger.

Most belt driven superchargers do use alot more power up then a turbo, especially at high RPM's. Procharger now has a chain drive which is supposed to take care of some of that. Turbo's are the ultimate power maker. But the blower guys are right there too. There are several 2000HP blower cars, just as turbo cars. Both require alot of work to science out.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Tom Vaught]

Sounds like there are several people interested in turbos or have done turbos in the past. The
single turbo blow-thru sounds a lot like the old HO Pontiac type system.

The draw thru systems will work well if you have
a carbon Faced seal on the turbo so fuel doesn't
migrate into the oil system from the CHRA (Center
Housing Rotating Assembly). The part that is in
the middle of the turbo that the oil and water lines hook up to.

A back-fire is always an issue on any engine. EFI
cars normally will blow a hose off, bend a throttle plate, etc but no real damage. This is
not always the case though as I remember when Marty Palbykin blew the throttle body off of one side of his twin turbo GTO at speed one time.
FIRE EVERYWHERE! Had a good fire suppression system on the car so no worries.


My friend Doug Hess, ran a small block chevy with
cast iron manifolds, Crane hydrallic cam, one
Dominator carb, and twin turbos in a Monza body
as fast as 8.63 at 174 mph in 1978 so a draw thru
set-up can't be all bad. Depends on how fast you
want to go. Keep posting guys! Tom V.

[GOAT8U2]

I am definitely a big fan of injection, especially when you see what these things can do when your cars on the dyno.
The thought crossed my mind on keeping the carb but the injection will also get better gas mileage and response. And I am sure you all know gas mileage is bad enough as is, let alone with two turbos on it. My goal is more streetable and not having to stop off every 125 miles to fill up.

Goatman, are you doing a twin 400 or a 455?
And 2000 hp is sick. My convertible would pop the doors off if I tryied to lay down that type of HP. I am sticking to more like 800 for the street and if I want to go to the track, maybe attempt to dial in more boost. I really do not know how much will be to much and start to hurt things and myself. I am going to set up tunings in the computer for different boost amounts while on the dyno and then just plug in the labtop when the situation calls for which one I want back in the real world.

Keep the info coming guys.

69 GTO Convertible
(Future Twin Turbo)
87 GN

[LouisianaGuy]

Im also very interested in trying out a turbo system, but i want ot be able to use it with the current compression ratio engine i have now, which is 9-1, so this will limit the amount of boost i can run. I am also like a few of the other folks around here "On a tight Budget", so the set up has to be affordable, im leaning towards trying to do what 455Bird has dont and maby using Alcahol/water injection if i must, but i would really assume use just high octane pump gas if at all possiable?
Tom would a Turbo off of one of the 301 turbo setups work, if it was made into a blow through type setup ? or would it only work in a pull thorugh type deal? or woulf the 301 turbo just not really do anything because its a piece of junk?
And what kind of turbo would be a good one to try and search out at the salvage yards or on Ebay if you wanted to keep the pressure down around 7 psi or so?
Also what would be the max pressure you could run on a 9-1 motor and still run pump gas?
Sorry for all the questions, im just really interested in something different.
Mike

[Tom Vaught]

I used to talk to a Pontiac engineer named Dudley McCully (also called Skip McCully) who had drawn
up a design to use two 301 Garrett turbochargers,
two factory cast iron 301 turbo manifolds, an
Offy dual quad intake manifold and two Quadrajet
carbs off the turbo cars on a 455 engine with 73-
74 Super Duty heads. His compression ratio would
have been about 8.2 to 8.4 to 1.

Two 5.0L turbos (301 cid each) have the intake compressor capacity to feed the 455 engine but the turbine side on the set-up will have to be dialed it (as would any turbo application).

Go for it. Tom V.

[SLOW 77]

The next engine I build will be a single turbo, FMIC, not sure if I will do EFI or blow thru though for fuel. I have seen some other people have no problems with the blow thru carbs, and it would save some money too. I figure I will go with a 400-416ci instead of the 455 though to cut down on some of the torque, and spin it to 7000rpm to pull some good mph. I will be happy with mid tens on pump gas and 9's with full race gas; I don't think it will be very hard to make, just a lot of time to make it look clean and fit well in the engine compartment.

One problem I am having is how would I get a 3.5-4" down pipe back under the cross member or somehow to the back of the car. I thought of notching the crossmemember or running the pipe on the pass side, and going down in between the frame and head, but I bet it will be very close. The car in question is a second gen T/A and I plan to leave the fender wells, or at least custom makes some for it. Any suggestions???

[Goatman]

GOAT, I'm using the 3" main IA block. I was going to backhalf my 70' GTO and use that car, but its just too big and heavy for what I want to do. Plus, as Slow77 has stated, fitting the turbo plumming in a "fame" car would be really hard. I have a hard enough time with the Hooker headers now.

Enter the 25.1C car........

I also plan on using a chassis dyno to get the motor to a state that I can make passes on it, then get the chassis sorted out, as you can't do the chassis untill you can make passes under full power.

Tom has really been a big help to me so far as far as parts selection goes. As much as I don't want to create any more "work" for him, he really is the man!


BTW, since this BB still won't allow us an EFI/forced induction area, this link will bring you all to a really good site that already has a section set up for us. Its a nice place, just a little too quiet right now:

http://www.pontiacs.org/modules.php?name=Forums

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[LouisianaGuy]

So Tom any suggestions on what kinda Turbo to start looking for to run a Single setup, or what cars to look for them on? adn how do you go about dialing it in? ya cant just get one that will flow enough air and bolt it on?/
Im very new to turbos, so i dont know.
also any of you have any really good articles with nice pictures in them on turbos and how they work?? i really already know the concept on them but generally with any Good information you get alot of basic info you already know.
Mike

[Goatman]

Alot of the turbo Regal/GN sites have good basic information.

I doubt any of the cars that are turbo charged (GN may be an exception) have a turbo that would work well with a V8. They were all designed for smaller CI's.

Of course, its never too hard to find a GN guy that is upgrading turbos'.

Chance favors the prepared mind.