[69gtocv]

"With BC/CC it's like the black is under a slightly foggy piece of glass". Exactly....or as I've always said that clear over straight black makes it looks "plasticy". I always got comments on my single stage black 69 vert that it looked miles deep. I think the issue is the paint shops these days are doing so much collision/repair work where they have to repaint newer cars that are bc/cc, that they balk at doing anything but. I bought a rear wing for my 69 after I had gotten the car done. I didn't want to destroy my garage again by painting it myself, so I took it to a highly recommended body shop to have them paint it. They almost didn't want to take the job because I insisted on single stage paint. They had to call my paint guy to refresh their memory on even what hardeners and such to use with it! My next project is my 68 LeMans in Cameo Ivory. I asked my paint guy if I should do bc/cc with it since I'm not looking for a mile deep look with white. He responded by saying "only if you want to waste money". I thought the bonus of the clear over the base coat was the added UV protection. He said that is bs, the single stage has the same UV protection in it.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

For those of us who get mixed up , this is the car thats Black, Red interior, White vinyl top.

At first I was thinking it was the Red/Red 68 from California that was 1 Family owned and still in the family.
It was all apart too.

Both are real clean in the metal department

[supersport#69]

Well hopefully it looks nice when done.

He said he planned to do 4-5 thin coats of clear. I don’t have it at a shop. It’s at a home of a guy doing it on the side. He worked for a high end shop locally for 9 years as body/paint guy. I’m pretty sure it’s not that he doesn’t know how to paint single stage. I really haven’t asked details of why he preferred bc/cc.

I do believe however that he is using my car as a marketing tool for his own side business because he actually wants to build his own clientele. Maybe that is a factor but I don’t know if you guys are saying it’s going to look like plastic or below foggy glass. I’m not sure why he’d want that trying to branch off.

I’m just happy to get it painted original color so I’ll cross my fingers I guess.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'd use BC/CC on it.
If the guy knows his Blacks ,, you wont have any regrets.
All blacks are not created equal

BC/CC will be a little more forgiving to water spots, fingerprinting, rag marks, swirl marks, pollution fallout, hard water, etc...
Not exempt, but more forgiving than Single Stage.

i paint cars too

[supersport#69]

That’s a relief to hear that. From what I’ve read on blacks I feel like I want the black that is more blue than brown.
valspar or General were the brands he’s been using so I think he wants to stay with those for the black brand.

[dataway]

I don't mean suggest BC/CC black looks bad, not at all, just a bit different than SS black. Bear in mind that black is a color that absorbs all frequencies of light to appear black, any clear over the top of that pigment is going to reflect some of the light that would normally be absorbed by SS black, so it's impossible for it to appear as black as SS black.

Some people actually prefer the BC/CC type of black, that is what people are used to seeing. An SS black car can actually look kind of strange in comparison ... by looking TOO black ... people just aren't used to see it anymore. Think about photos of 1930's cars restored in original SS black lacquer .... they have a level of blackness you just don't see on modern cars.

[69gtocv]

"BC/CC will be a little more forgiving to water spots, fingerprinting, rag marks, swirl marks, pollution fallout, hard water, etc...
Not exempt, but more forgiving than Single Stage"
I'm curious as to this statement. I could see if you got some serious etching in the top coat due to pollution, hard water, etc, then it would be that the clear coat would become the sacrificial layer. But, you're still going to see those issues in the paint, the clear isn't going to hide it. Then to eliminate those issues, you're going to need to polish them out. Is this car going to be daily driven, parked outside? I'm doubting it. That's something else that hasn't been brought up. If you end up cutting/buffing/polishing through the clear top coat and get into the base coat, or worse yet, get a chip in the paint down to the primer, then you are repainting the panel or car again with base coat AND clear coat. Double the money. Do the same with single stage and all you have to do is scuff the color and re-shoot with more single stage.

"I don't mean suggest BC/CC black looks bad, not at all, just a bit different than SS black. Bear in mind that black is a color that absorbs all frequencies of light to appear black, any clear over the top of that pigment is going to reflect some of the light that would normally be absorbed by SS black, so IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT TO APPEAR AS BLACK AS SS BLACK" I totally agree with this statement. As I wrote in my earlier comment, I'm sure it will look great. It's just if I was going to paint my car black (which I did), then I want the blackest black there is. That won't happen with clear over it.

[69gtocv]

supersport,

Check out post #7 in this thread if you haven't already. Very good side by side shot of bc/cc vs ss black

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=834598

[dataway]

Originally Posted by 69gtocv

supersport,

Check out post #7 in this thread if you haven't already. Very good side by side shot of bc/cc vs ss black

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=834598

Yep ... a bright overcast day like that is the best possible way to see the difference. On a clear sunny day, or at night, the difference would be way less. A point source of light is way more forgiving than a "diffuse" light source in most situations. That was a major reason back in the day used car dealers hung strings of bare light bulbs over their cars ... all the point light sources made them look shinier and less flaws were visible.

I do 3D modeling and rendering on the side ... sitting up lights is an art in itself. Black is one of the toughest colors to do .... do it wrong and it looks like either a mirror, or like a black hole in space. How do you make it look more "real" you add some diffuse reflection of light ... pretty much exactly the same thing as clear over black. With all the video and rendering science out there ... true black is still the hardest thing to make look right on a screen.

Downside to really nice SS black ... it shows absolutely every flaw in the body work .... again, because it's absorbing every wave length of light.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 69gtocv

"BC/CC will be a little more forgiving to water spots, fingerprinting, rag marks, swirl marks, pollution fallout, hard water, etc...
Not exempt, but more forgiving than Single Stage"
I'm curious as to this statement. I could see if you got some serious etching in the top coat due to pollution, hard water, etc, then it would be that the clear coat would become the sacrificial layer. But, you're still going to see those issues in the paint, the clear isn't going to hide it. Then to eliminate those issues, you're going to need to polish them out.

I don't do 3D imaging or sell houses or insurance.
Mostly high end automotive painting for the last 33 years, with breaks here and there. Black has always been my favorite to spray.

I don't think most guys here know a whole lot about painting cars or repairing the paint on cars. But most know some varying degrees.

BC/CC Black is way more forgiving in virtually every instance than Single Stage.
Especially when applied towards most car owners who have limited ability or desire to maintain and caress a Black Car the way it needs to be.

What i mentioned - it shows up way less in a BC/CC car than it will on a SS car.
Its usually still there in degree, its just much less detectable than the same with SS.

It doesn't cost double to do BC/CC Black , but it does run a little more than a Single Stage job. And worth it.

Some apples to apples

In 98 i painted my 84 Fiero with Deltron BC/CC Black. (i'm not a PPG guy - thats just what the shop owner stocked - and mine was free for my car from PPG, so...)
Same week we did a Fox-Body Mustang in Deltron Single Stage Black.
Both cut and buffed.
Side-by-Side all agreed the BC/CC looked better, even the owner of the Mustang.
It was his choice to use Single Stage, even though we did try to sway him beforehand.

So examples vary depending on content
and opinions can vary no matter what the topic.
- it can go on and on and on

Another apples to apples comparison we encountered in another shop in 1988 & 1989 on a problem Black Car. Brand new 87 442 - in less than a year the factory baked lacquer was ringed and etched from acid rain so bad that GM approved a repaint. A fellow painter in the shop stripped the top panels and did the whole car with Single Stage Sikkens - down to the lower 2-tone/decals.

About a year later - it was in practically the same condition with acid rain rings and hard water spots. And now even the glass T-Tops had it too, but that wasn't on his complaint list. He lived in a rural area and used well water (hard water) to wash car every week. Probably wasn't helping the cause.

This time the owner had to file suit against GM and have arbitration and litigation hearings. Wound up with a court order to have car stripped again and repainted at GM's expense.
Lucky me, i got the job.

Used Sikkens BC/CC on the car and we never had another complaint from the guy again. He kept the car a long time and always brought it back to the dealer for all service work. I cringed every time i saw it there during my tenure, but it held up nicely.

I own 3 Factory Black GTO's - all will be done in BC/CC

And all Blacks are not created equal
If the painter knows his Blacks - you'll never have an issue - in my book.

[69gtocv]

"I don't do 3D imaging or sell houses or insurance.
Mostly high end automotive painting for the last 33 years, with breaks here and there"

Really??

My post wasn't to start an argument with you, was only curious as to your statements on the perceived benefits of bc/cc. So the dig on the rest of us "non professional painters" was a bit uncalled for.

Doesn't change the fact what my (and many others) eyes see when I look at a black car in bc/cc vs ss.

So I guess we'll go with the standard "we'll have to agree to disagree"

For the OP, again, good luck with your paint job, I have no doubt it'll come out great

[supersport#69]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I don't do 3D imaging or sell houses or insurance.
Mostly high end automotive painting for the last 33 years, with breaks here and there. Black has always been my favorite to spray.

I don't think most guys here know a whole lot about painting cars or repairing the paint on cars. But most know some varying degrees.

BC/CC Black is way more forgiving in virtually every instance than Single Stage.
Especially when applied towards most car owners who have limited ability or desire to maintain and caress a Black Car the way it needs to be.

What i mentioned - it shows up way less in a BC/CC car than it will on a SS car.
Its usually still there in degree, its just much less detectable than the same with SS.

It doesn't cost double to do BC/CC Black , but it does run a little more than a Single Stage job. And worth it.

Some apples to apples

In 98 i painted my 84 Fiero with Deltron BC/CC Black. (i'm not a PPG guy - thats just what the shop owner stocked - and mine was free for my car from PPG, so...)
Same week we did a Fox-Body Mustang in Deltron Single Stage Black.
Both cut and buffed.
Side-by-Side all agreed the BC/CC looked better, even the owner of the Mustang.
It was his choice to use Single Stage, even though we did try to sway him beforehand.

So examples vary depending on content
and opinions can vary no matter what the topic.
- it can go on and on and on

Another apples to apples comparison we encountered in another shop in 1988 & 1989 on a problem Black Car. Brand new 87 442 - in less than a year the factory baked lacquer was ringed and etched from acid rain so bad that GM approved a repaint. A fellow painter in the shop stripped the top panels and did the whole car with Single Stage Sikkens - down to the lower 2-tone/decals.

About a year later - it was in practically the same condition with acid rain rings and hard water spots. And now even the glass T-Tops had it too, but that wasn't on his complaint list. He lived in a rural area and used well water (hard water) to wash car every week. Probably wasn't helping the cause.

This time the owner had to file suit against GM and have arbitration and litigation hearings. Wound up with a court order to have car stripped again and repainted at GM's expense.
Lucky me, i got the job.

Used Sikkens BC/CC on the car and we never had another complaint from the guy again. He kept the car a long time and always brought it back to the dealer for all service work. I cringed every time i saw it there during my tenure, but it held up nicely.

I own 3 Factory Black GTO's - all will be done in BC/CC

And all Blacks are not created equal
If the painter knows his Blacks - you'll never have an issue - in my book.

Sounds good to me. Thank you for the background! Any experience with General or Valspar auto paint?

[Sidponcho]

My pickup is a 2015 with 130k miles on it. Its black ( BC/CC obviously). I wash it every 2 weeks early am and dry it at 65mph for 15 minutes. It's never been waxed, the paint shines and people frequently ask if it's a new truck. BC/CC all the way, every day

[dataway]

What someone does for a living doesn't effect how their eyes work. SS black looks better to me as it does to many others. If if it doesn't to you, that's fine too. No need to imply my opinion doesn't count because of what I might do for a living.

Not sure why BC/CC and SS have become some kind of fan boy thing. I think solids look better SS and metallics look better BC/CC.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

It doesn't matter where someone works when they express their heartfelt opinion.

When someone's opinion and statements are distinctly called into question, as mine were, it takes a different form and backgrounds become more relevant.

33 years of auto refinishing is pretty damn relevant.
Black being my specialty is another relevant factor.

My eyes have seen more than just random paint jobs by unknown artists using who knows what for their basecoat. Or whether or not the clearcoat was a true crystal clear. yada yada

A lot of clears on the market have off shades of amber and yellow, some with tinges of blue or green.
It all makes a difference in the end.

All black paints are not automatically equal, never have been.
Paint a few yourself with various brands and see for yourselves.
You should find even more depth and even higher distinction of image with proper BC/CC Black than any SS Black.
I have.

Maybe that's a part of what someone doesn't like ?

BC/CC Black for the Win - Always
... and I'm not a 3D Imager or Real Estate agent or Insurance agent
Mostly - I paint cars

Supersport#69 was being advised NOT to use BC/CC
I threw in my 2 cents- and someone got bent sideways, then another.
Thats the timeline , its not a fanboy thing

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by supersport#69

Sounds good to me. Thank you for the background! Any experience with General or Valspar auto paint?

Valspar definitely has been around for a while and manufacture good products.
Have only used their products a few times, but have never personally used it on a Black Car.

Never heard of General, doesn't mean its not good.

Most all brands have an economy line now, just ask that the topcoats be pure premium.
Black is a very demanding color against the environments.

[dataway]

I did NOT recommend any particular kind of paint to anyone. I stated my opinion on which I like better and why. I never even read any of your posts.

You could have painted a million cars .... but SS black still looks better to me. Sorry if that offends you.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'm not offended by that, or by you.
Not offended by 69gtocv , or his opinion on Black Paint.

His reply did seem to contain more snark -than actual inquisition- to me initially, and i may have snarkled it back just a little.
Maybe i was wrong.

Mostly just provided more pertinent info in reply.

I don't hold grudges on this site.
Do get some frustration at times, but it passes quickly.
There are a few i avoid any interaction with after some repeated snarky episodes.
But thats probably true for anyone here with high post counts.

[69gtocv]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I'm not offended by that, or by you.
Not offended by 69gtocv , or his opinion on Black Paint.

His reply did seem to contain more snark -than actual inquisition- to me initially, and i may have snarkled it back just a little.
Maybe i was wrong.

Mostly just provided more pertinent info in reply.

I don't hold grudges on this site.
Do get some frustration at times, but it passes quickly.
There are a few i avoid any interaction with after some repeated snarky episodes.
But thats probably true for anyone here with high post counts.

There was no "snark" intended and if you took it that way, I'm sorry. I only wanted to hear about your experience as to why you prefer bc/cc. You answered it and that's great. Not sure either one of us got "bent sideways".

[supersport#69]

It looks like one of the main clears the paint shop sells is genverde. Any experience with this brand? I’m not sure which one my painter is going with yet though but I’ve seen a lot of that brand in his garage.