[grandville455]

Originally Posted by ChiefCrazyCanuck

I agree with Slowbird. Might want to look closer at camshaft duration, especially with the relatively low CR you are running. Consider advancing the cam you have provided that you have sufficient P/V clearance.

Too many times people change cams without advance/retard changes to the existing profile. These changes can help you make an informed decision as to what changes if any are required to the existing cam.

Exactly, even before trying that I'd try a tighter or looser lash that will also tell u some things the engine may or may not need. What was the cranking psi of old engine compared to this one? Have u tried timing changes , launch rpms, shift rpms
etc? There are so many things to try, people give up way to early sometimes in their combo;s and start switching things out, instead of optimizing!

[ChiefCrazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Exactly, even before trying that I'd try a tighter or looser lash that will also tell u some things the engine may or may not need. What was the cranking psi of old engine compared to this one? Have u tried timing changes , launch rpms, shift rpms
etc? There are so many things to try, people give up way to early sometimes in their combo;s and start switching things out, instead of optimizing!

Yes indeed, 100%. The lash adjustments will tell you a lot about what the engine wants and dislikes.

[i82much]

i don’t race, but i do go out to the shop every now and again and gaze lovingly at my e-heads. wife is jealous but what can i say, i’ve got a wandering eye.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by i82much

i don’t race, but i do go out to the shop every now and again and gaze lovingly at my e-heads. wife is jealous but what can i say, i’ve got a wandering eye.

Tell her your checking out the car.... Keep the E-heads a secret so she isn't jealous.

[BLANK1]

Darby,
Went testing and tuning last month at Milan Dragway. It was hot and humid in the 80's and made 5 passes. Changed timing anywhere from 28 to 38 degrees, tried different launch rpm's(footbraked) and tried different shift points from 6000 to 6500. Went 11.20 @ 119.37 mph, 11.18 @ 120.10, 11.14(38 degrees timing)@ 119.83, 11.21 @ 119.38 and 11.20 @ 118.92 mph. 60 fts were anywhere from 1.61 to 1.57. Lash with this Jones cam is at .015/.019. I saw a guy on facebook with a wagon that has a motor similar to mine and he said his ran best with 41 degrees timing. Gonna try that next and maybe get a higher stall converter or pull the heads and have them shaved a bit for higher compression and try the 271/278 cam or just put a nitrous kit on it but I would rather run NA. Just need to rob a bank so I can build a 500+ inch shortblock that these HP's would work better on and get this heavy car moving. Want to be in the 10.00 range.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by BLANK1

Darby,
Went testing and tuning last month at Milan Dragway. It was hot and humid in the 80's and made 5 passes. Changed timing anywhere from 28 to 38 degrees, tried different launch rpm's(footbraked) and tried different shift points from 6000 to 6500. Went 11.20 @ 119.37 mph, 11.18 @ 120.10, 11.14(38 degrees timing)@ 119.83, 11.21 @ 119.38 and 11.20 @ 118.92 mph. 60 fts were anywhere from 1.61 to 1.57. Lash with this Jones cam is at .015/.019. I saw a guy on facebook with a wagon that has a motor similar to mine and he said his ran best with 41 degrees timing. Gonna try that next and maybe get a higher stall converter or pull the heads and have them shaved a bit for higher compression and try the 271/278 cam or just put a nitrous kit on it but I would rather run NA. Just need to rob a bank so I can build a 500+ inch shortblock that these HP's would work better on and get this heavy car moving. Want to be in the 10.00 range.

Something is seriously off if its not showing much change in all those things u tried? Hp Should never need that kind of timing imo. 28-32 is about the normal from what i've seen. Whats your fuel system setup? whats your current intake setup? any spacers etc? How do the plugs look? Have u done a cranking test/ bleed down?

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I doubt you'll find many examples of 480 cid or less pump gas builds making good power using hi-port heads... There is a "reason" why the E-heads are TTF!

I did a 395 pump gas Hp motor with small valves long while ago made some decent numbers. At the time Kauffman said others were putting small valves in the HPs with good results on smaller cube motors. Haven't seen anyone else here post about one though.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

I did a 395 pump gas Hp motor with small valves long while ago made some decent numbers. At the time Kauffman said others were putting small valves in the HPs with good results on smaller cube motors. Haven't seen anyone else here post about one though.

Stock as cast HP heads with 2.200” intake valve, 409ci, flat top pistons made over 600HP. Best ET was 10.64 @ 127MPH, just under 3600lbs.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[BLANK1]

Darby,
Fuel system consists of fuel cell, Aeromotive SS fuel pump, 1/2 inch line to dead head regulator and two 6-AN lines to carb. Intake is an unported Northwind with 2.3X1.2 intake opening and a one inch open spacer. Tried a super sucker spacer but no change in times. Tried a Victor once and ran the same. Cranking compression was 165/170 with old Lunati cam and 175/180 with this Jones cam. Number eight cylinder was 170. Jetting last time out was 85/93. Didn't check the plugs at the track. In the past, plugs were always a little dark but I never checked them at wide open throttle and shut down then check as that is what I have been told is the correct way to check them?

[ChiefCrazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by BLANK1

Darby,
Fuel system consists of fuel cell, Aeromotive SS fuel pump, 1/2 inch line to dead head regulator and two 6-AN lines to carb. Intake is an unported Northwind with 2.3X1.2 intake opening and a one inch open spacer. Tried a super sucker spacer but no change in times. Tried a Victor once and ran the same. Cranking compression was 165/170 with old Lunati cam and 175/180 with this Jones cam. Number eight cylinder was 170. Jetting last time out was 85/93. Didn't check the plugs at the track. In the past, plugs were always a little dark but I never checked them at wide open throttle and shut down then check as that is what I have been told is the correct way to check them?

Would be good to test with a wideband to understand where the AFR is.

I would try an initial test as Darby suggested different lash settings to determine the amount of intake and exhaust timing (duration) the motor wants. And adjust the intake valves first, don't change the lash settings for both valves at the same time as it wont tell you exactly which change helped or hurt.

The intake lash adjustments will make a bigger change than the exhaust, hence the suggestion to start there.

Looser first to see the effect. No minor changes, Suggest .010" looser (.025" lash), as a change like that is a pretty big "swipe" at the cam duration which should tell us something. And that should be a safe adjustment for testing purposes looking at your current lash settings. I don't think you could test a tighter lash more than .005" from where your are at currently safely. And if it picks up with a looser intake lash setting, for obvious reasons don't bother testing tighter. Same strategy to follow with the exhaust setting.

If it responds favorably to looser intake lash, it will likely also respond well to a cam timing advance. As we do not know the ICL of your current Jones cam, you will need to experiment as deemed practical by your PTV clearance.

All testing should be controlled to the best of your abilities, meaning no other changes to fueling or timing in these lash tests. Equivalent coolant temperatures. And during the same day, plus consider and account for the DA changes throughout the day while testing.

I have had E-head combos that like 42 degrees of advance, but have not found the KRE HP heads to want near that much. 34-36 would be pushing it.

And look for the simple stupid stuff, like not having WOT, or good grounds, or tight electrical connections,, or low float settings, or forgot to install rear jet extensions. It happens...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

I did a 395 pump gas Hp motor with small valves long while ago made some decent numbers. At the time Kauffman said others were putting small valves in the HPs with good results on smaller cube motors. Haven't seen anyone else here post about one though.

Smaller valves would be a step in the correct direction.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Stock as cast HP heads with 2.200” intake valve, 409ci, flat top pistons made over 600HP. Best ET was 10.64 @ 127MPH, just under 3600lbs.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Thanks Calvin,

Do you know peak HP RPM and compression ratio?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Stock as cast HP heads with 2.200” intake valve, 409ci, flat top pistons made over 600HP. Best ET was 10.64 @ 127MPH, just under 3600lbs.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Good to see you posting

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by BLANK1

I have a stock block 461 with High Ports in my 68 GTO. Bottom end has 4.155 ROSS pistons, RPM rods, Ohio forged crank and studded 2 bolt caps. Northwind and a 1050 Dominator. Used to have 78cc E-heads just cleaned up with 2.11/1.66 valves and a 2.3X1.2 intake opening. Had a Lunati solid roller 255/263 @ .050 .4176 lobes 109 LSA 1.6 rockers and about .650 lift. CR was about 10.8 used 93 pump gas. Best time was a 10.97 @ 122 mph at 3850 lb race weight. TH400 with 4000 stall FTI converter. 3.73 gears. Changed only the heads to 80cc High Ports with 2.4X1.2 intake opening otherwise as cast heads with 2.2 and 1.7 valves. Compression now 10.63. Couldn't match time with E-heads. Came close but couldn't run tens. Mostly 11 teens to 11.20's. Ran that mostly with the E-heads also. Changed cam to a Jones custom solid roller everything else the same. 316/320, 263/269 @ .050, .421/.412 lobe lift and 110 LSA. Lift is .658 and .640. Best time with this cam is 10.97 @ 123 mph with a 1.61 60 ft. Mostly runs 11 teens and 11.20's. Next thing to try is maybe a higher stall converter or more cubes? Was hoping for consistent 10's. I do have a Lunati 271/278 @ 050 solid roller I was thinking of trying.

You do not have near enough cam to do what you want. Not enough gear and not the right converter either. Should be over 11-1 CR also.
You are going to want to be at least .725 lift at the valve with those High Ports. Thats where they want to be, so let them do what they do best.

IMO with the right cam and converter you should be in the mid 10s all day long.
Your 60 foots need to be in the mid/low 1.4s , at least.
Do you have a full flow sheet for your High Ports ?
Not knocking you combo, I like your car. But its heavy and you need to get it moving off the line as soon as possible and and let those heads do what they do best and keep them there. Your engine is not that big so thats what you have to do IMO.
Doing my own 461 with Ross flat tops, 80cc High Ports and I plan on being very lows 10s at least.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BLANK1

I have a stock block 461 with High Ports in my 68 GTO. Bottom end has 4.155 ROSS pistons, RPM rods, Ohio forged crank and studded 2 bolt caps. Northwind and a 1050 Dominator. Used to have 78cc E-heads just cleaned up with 2.11/1.66 valv8es and a 2.3X1.2 intake opening. Had a Lunati solid roller 255/263 @ .050 .4176 lobes 109 LSA 1.6 rockers and about .650 lift. CR was about 10.8 used 93 pump gas. Best time was a 10.97 @ 122 mph at 3850 lb race weight. TH400 with 4000 stall FTI converter. 3.73 gears. Changed only the heads to 80cc High Ports with 2.4X1.2 intake opening otherwise as cast heads with 2.2 and 1.7 valves. Compression now 10.63. Couldn't match time with E-heads. Came close but couldn't run tens. Mostly 11 teens to 11.20's. Ran that mostly with the E-heads also. Changed cam to a Jones custom solid roller everything else the same. 316/320, 263/269 @ .050, .421/.412 lobe lift and 110 LSA. Lift is .658 and .640. Best time with this cam is 10.97 @ 123 mph with a 1.61 60 ft. Mostly runs 11 teens and 11.20's. Next thing to try is maybe a higher stall converter or more cubes? Was hoping for consistent 10's. I do have a Lunati 271/278 @ 050 solid roller I was thinking of trying.

Converter should help, I'd think that cam would like about 4500. The Jones cam seems pretty close, I would use as high a ratio rocker as possible on the intake side. You will also gain with more compression but will be limited to the octane of your fuel.

Your deal reminds me of a similar situation I had about ten years ago. We built a stock block SBF for a young man and he hung out on the Internet too much. He had it in his head before the build was completed that we didn't make his heads "good enough". With our combination he had a nice street driver using one of our 4150 carbs, ran 10.20 second pass down the track and 9.50 on spray. He also surprised a few folks and took their money.... I attached a video of a pretty cool race he won.

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippen...5349555623153/

Anyways that Fall he yanked the heads off and took them to the "man" that could make them work. Supposedly 30 cfm later and a couple of pounds lighter the car slowed down two tenths. I gave him fair warning the next thing coming will be the recommendations of bigger gear, more converter, bigger cam, bigger carburetor. Well over the next two seasons the 3.70 was replaced with a 4.10, converter was loosened up, 4150 was replaced with a 4500 and the cam we spec'd was replaced with a Wiz bang big duration camshaft.... The car now ran 10.15.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to swap out your 3.73's. You might see a little but not a lot. Two of my cars are similar weight to yours and the one runs mid tens with 3.42's and the other goes 9's with a 3.89 both are factory block pump gas combos..... You could test with a shorter tire to get an idea.

[firechicken]

Ford driver got lucky! Hahaha!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by firechicken

Ford driver got lucky! Hahaha!

Thanks... You know you're the underdog when the track announcer says you're going to get your butt whipped.

[firechicken]

Bullsh!t walks as they say...nice job Paul K

[Dragncar]

Here is a flow sheet of my 80cc High Ports with a very mild port job. Port openings are stock.
Notice the nice increase in flow PAST where is Jones cam is capable of lifting the intake valve ? See that ?
Why would you not let the engine put that to good use ? If you are going to run that cam you were better off with the E heads. Truth is, for the vast majority of Pontiac racers E heads are a better choice. So if you are going to run the High Ports you need to take advantage of what it does best.
His Jones cam is about what I run on iron HO heads that might flow 260cfm. So Its a good cam if you are running iron heads that do not flow.
Think not ? I am running same MPH and better ETs with a car that is a couple hundred lbs lighter. Lower CR, smaller carb, more gear and more converter.

Blank, its all about the 60 foot, every little bit of it. Get that down first and go from there. You MUST get that car moving out of the hole to let those High Ports do their job, even if you are choking them off with that cam. Your engine is simply not powerful enough to make up for a poor 60 foot.
If you get your 60 foots down then find the proper cam you are mid 10s or better all day long baby.

Question, why did David Bishop tell me I am going to need a .750 lift cam to make the heads work ??

Now, small block Fords and nitrous does not relate to what we are doing here so who cares ?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Here is a flow sheet of my 80cc High Ports with a very mild port job. Port openings are stock.
Notice the nice increase in flow PAST where is Jones cam is capable of lifting the intake valve ? See that ?
Why would you not let the engine put that to good use ? If you are going to run that cam you were better off with the E heads. Truth is, for the vast majority of Pontiac racers E heads are a better choice. So if you are going to run the High Ports you need to take advantage of what it does best.
His Jones cam is about what I run on iron HO heads that might flow 260cfm. So Its a good cam if you are running iron heads that do not flow.
Think not ? I am running same MPH and better ETs with a car that is a couple hundred lbs lighter. Lower CR, smaller carb, more gear and more converter.

Blank, its all about the 60 foot, every little bit of it. Get that down first and go from there. You MUST get that car moving out of the hole to let those High Ports do their job, even if you are choking them off with that cam. Your engine is simply not powerful enough to make up for a poor 60 foot.
If you get your 60 foots down then find the proper cam you are mid 10s or better all day long baby.

Question, why did David Bishop tell me I am going to need a .750 lift cam to make the heads work ??

Now, small block Fords and nitrous does not relate to what we are doing here so who cares ?

Don't leave out the fact you run on a beach at sea level.