#41  
Old 03-06-2021, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 70GS455 View Post
Better not use Old McDonald....might offend someone

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Lol.... Don't want any hurt feelings.

Sometimes we do seem to get a bit carried away here. Big difference between reality and Internet reality. I wish everyone took their jobs this seriously. I know it would help things out a lot on my end.

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  #42  
Old 03-06-2021, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
You just gotta know all the scientific stuff because it matters, right? I can't believe anyone would just slap a 500HP engine together without knowing all the related scientific formulas and what is needed to make it all work and then take it to the track and run 11's
The scientific details are what inspired my curiosity more than 30 years ago and still to this day. I wanted to understand in depth why a Mustang engine had more power than the Ford 302 in my parent's hand-me-down sedan.
Just a few months ago I was designing Ford 5L cam lobes and comparing to Ford's factory numbers, seeking more WHY. There were many times this obsession kept me up till nearly 2 a.m. when I started my paid job hours later at 8 a.m.
I learned things not available anywhere on the internet or in any book. There is a well known mechanical engineering PHD who doesn't know this either.. frankly he shovels 75% BS in anything he says.

Everyone on the internet knows a Pontiac 455 performs using a 234/244 - 112 LSA cam, I think that Jim Hand article was up in the late 90s. Harland Sharp 1.65 rockers, Rhoad's lifters, Continental etc etc.. it is all there. Nearly every week another combo built with the same recipe. If people are wise and get around to see what other brands do, there is lots of knowledge and lessons there also.

Access to the math of the required valve motion is special. Why did Hand's and other engines do what they do, how closely do all the dots align by math / physics.

I have a friend who put together an 8 second Twin Turbo car without understanding the science / math, he just had many consultants tell him what to do and give him the grocery list. He also assembled his own TH400 with instructions provided by Jakeshoe.


Last edited by pastry_chef; 03-06-2021 at 04:56 PM.
  #43  
Old 03-06-2021, 06:02 PM
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Region Warrior Region Warrior is offline
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If referring to me, no hurt feelings.
I wrenched in a auto/truck repair shop out of high school till got the chance to be a Pontiac parts dept manager at age 24. Over twice the pay back then.
Only degree have is GM Business Management and Accounting.
Never thought about a degree in engine building. Started helping my father on his 57 at age 5-6 by getting whatever tool he needed.
Then helped wrench on his and my 6 year older brother by age10.
1st engine I built by myself was age 16. Used left overs from dad's and brother's.
Drove car to work, back and forth to US30, and averaged 11.95-12.10 with 9" slicks.
Never had bottom end apart for 2 years.
Even a cave man could build a 400hp Pontiac 45 years ago
Have 20 year old parts laying around that made 700 NA on a 440ci.

Sorry for rant OP.
Back to topic.

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  #44  
Old 03-06-2021, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PAUL K View Post
Great post Mr Jim.... Only way it could be better is to word it to Ole' McDonald's farm song or something.
I'll work on the tune, but I'll have to get the proper resonance and frequency to match the assorted tones of each letter found in my post. I think I can drop in a little 'ole rock & roll base melody, something captivating like Smoke on the Water that really gets you pumped, and weave in a little Norman Greenbaum's Spirit in the Sky to get everyone reeling to the tune - might even get those who have those small cammed 900HP Pontiac engines hitting 180 MPH as if they had the stereo cranked up on Sammy Hagar's I Can't Drive 55!

I'd throw in a little Do-Whop, but that might confuse those not old enough to understand the quantum mechanics of finger popping tempo's.

  #45  
Old 03-06-2021, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Region Warrior View Post
If referring to me, no hurt feelings.
I wrenched in a auto/truck repair shop out of high school till got the chance to be a Pontiac parts dept manager at age 24. Over twice the pay back then.
Only degree have is GM Business Management and Accounting.
Never thought about a degree in engine building. Started helping my father on his 57 at age 5-6 by getting whatever tool he needed.
Then helped wrench on his and my 6 year older brother by age10.
1st engine I built by myself was age 16. Used left overs from dad's and brother's.
Drove car to work, back and forth to US30, and averaged 11.95-12.10 with 9" slicks.
Never had bottom end apart for 2 years.
Even a cave man could build a 400hp Pontiac 45 years ago
Have 20 year old parts laying around that made 700 NA on a 440ci.

Sorry for rant OP.
Back to topic.
I was not referring to you, and if you thought so, I apologize, I just used your post to build my post reply off of. I just don't think you need to be a rocket scientist and go through all the available theories of fluid dynamics as they relate to aerodynamics. I just don't know how I ever assembled an engine not knowing all this stuff when I was 21 in the early '80's, and with never a thought of a dyno. My engineering skills were to simply street race some guy and see if I could take him. If he beat me, I looked to add "something" or "adjust" something in the hopes I might get him the next time. But, of course, when you lost to a Hemi or an LS6 powered Chevelle with 4-speed and 4.88's, you never felt bad and accepted it with a smile on your face - because it was still cool just to give him a run. I don' think any of those guys knew squat about port velocity or the heat of expanding gases either.

  #46  
Old 03-06-2021, 11:09 PM
PontiacJim1959 PontiacJim1959 is offline
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Originally Posted by pastry_chef View Post
The scientific details are what inspired my curiosity more than 30 years ago and still to this day. I wanted to understand in depth why a Mustang engine had more power than the Ford 302 in my parent's hand-me-down sedan.
Just a few months ago I was designing Ford 5L cam lobes and comparing to Ford's factory numbers, seeking more WHY. There were many times this obsession kept me up till nearly 2 a.m. when I started my paid job hours later at 8 a.m.
I learned things not available anywhere on the internet or in any book. There is a well known mechanical engineering PHD who doesn't know this either.. frankly he shovels 75% BS in anything he says.

Everyone on the internet knows a Pontiac 455 performs using a 234/244 - 112 LSA cam, I think that Jim Hand article was up in the late 90s. Harland Sharp 1.65 rockers, Rhoad's lifters, Continental etc etc.. it is all there. Nearly every week another combo built with the same recipe. If people are wise and get around to see what other brands do, there is lots of knowledge and lessons there also.

Access to the math of the required valve motion is special. Why did Hand's and other engines do what they do, how closely do all the dots align by math / physics.

I have a friend who put together an 8 second Twin Turbo car without understanding the science / math, he just had many consultants tell him what to do and give him the grocery list. He also assembled his own TH400 with instructions provided by Jakeshoe.
I too love the science of it all, and have a nice library that covers quite a bit of it, BUT, this stuff is not new, and certainly was not sparked in the 90's by Jim Hand. It is just like any look back into history, you need to do the research and keep going back to all the experiments, testing, and patents that cover a lot of what we believe is "new information." Look into aviation, European race cars, and don't leave out the highly engineered engines assembled for the popular classes of high speed boat racing in the 1920's/1930's.

Engines of all kinds & makes can be a fascinating eye opener once you expand into areas of history past - sleeve valve engines, valve-less engines having a cam with slots, gear driven superchargers, adjustable timing from the seat of your car, roller cams/lifters, etc.. And what works for one engine type/family, does not mean it'll work for another - too many variables can change. Remember, there was a time when scientist used their formulas to calculate that the fastest a drag car could ever go was around 180 MPH - and Bumble Bees should not be able to fly. So for most of us who build cars, short of not having all the dyno's, air/fuel monitors, means to measure port velocities, and the like, we used this thing called a "butt meter" that let us know if the changes we made set us back into the seat just a little bit deeper. Always seemed to scientifically work for me - until reading a few of these scientific posts and now question myself and how I was cheated because I didn't have that knowledge and could have shaved another .01 off my 14 second car.

  #47  
Old 03-07-2021, 12:04 AM
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Pics of the runners on our cast iron intake
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  #48  
Old 03-07-2021, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
Always seemed to scientifically work for me - until reading a few of these scientific posts and now question myself and how I was cheated because I didn't have that knowledge
I guess it depends on who's science.

Is a certain equation / theory something that was derived by some engineer or a leading motorsports professional with a lengthy history blessing champions and dozens of record holders. Big difference -- the later KNOWS its effective because they apply it every day and their success depends on it.

  #49  
Old 03-07-2021, 08:17 AM
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There is a saying about the two types of analyst and is goes something like this; there are those that know they don't know and those that don't. Talk about a thread being out in the weeds lol

Thanks for posting the pictures of your intake Slowbird. The flanges look 1233 or RAV sized.

  #50  
Old 03-07-2021, 08:36 AM
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Pics of the runners on our cast iron intake
Looks good , thanks for the pictures.


How fast did you guys go with a factory manifold.


Those runners look more efficient than the front half of an Offy 2x4 manifold and there seems to be quite a few guys that have had success using that manifold. So I guess that makes the tri-power not half bad!

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Last edited by PAUL K; 03-07-2021 at 08:42 AM.
  #51  
Old 03-07-2021, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PAUL K View Post
Looks good , thanks for the pictures.


How fast did you guys go with a factory manifold.


Those runners look more efficient than the front half of an Offy 2x4 manifold and there seems to be quite a few guys that have had success using that manifold. So I guess that makes the tri-power not half bad!
Id have to verify this but pretty sure it went high 9s with our stock block engine.

  #52  
Old 03-07-2021, 04:18 PM
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thanks slowbird. really good to see.

I should have thought about and checked ahead of this tread, there is a post on a similar topic here: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...49#post5313949

I am connecting the two for any future readers that have the same questions as me. that thread was from 6 years ago, and funny enough, many of the same folks chiming in. :-)

I do not want to get into an exercise of adding weld/epoxy to the manifold as well as sorting out the alignment, height, etc.

So, i think piecing together all the feedback off both these threads - the KRE D ports (their ports are smaller than eheads mentioned by b-man in other thread) with ports left as is, with perhaps some porting work around bowl, turn, etc as slowbird has suggested, plus opening up the stock intake manifold ports as much as possible, again using slowbird example, would mean that i don't need to add any material to the intake to get it to work. That is what I am summarizing from all the helpful conversation. Thank you guys.

And region, i agree that best approach would be to buy an aluminum intake and put my stock intake , plus the heads on the shelf for preservation sake. They are in perfect condition. My only issue is that it sounds like those aluminum tripower intakes are not very good repop and have fitiment issues into themselves. let's see. If i use the stock intake, ill probably throw a 4 barrel and that performer on the shelf on the car in the interim so i can continue to drive this coming season as all these other parts start to come together.

I just reserved a hotel for norwalk (my first time), so if anyone going here happy to buy you a beer for all the help.

  #53  
Old 03-07-2021, 04:38 PM
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there are those that know they don't know and those that don't


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NckjX9NDxJ8

  #54  
Old 03-07-2021, 05:20 PM
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Good video Pastry, touché.

  #55  
Old 03-07-2021, 05:36 PM
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This is mostly an apples to oranges comparison, but will post it anyway. A few years ago one of our club members had me build a 455 for him for his '65 GTO convertible and I port matched an aftermarket Tri-Power manifold to his Kaufman 290 CFM heads. I thought the combo ran very good, but for reasons unknown he wanted to go back to a single carb so I port matched an RPM with a Holley 850, and the Tri-Power went up on the shelf. The Tri-Power and the RPM dyno'd a little less than eight horsepower apart with the RPM inching out the lead. Considering there was a large time span between sessions I'd call it an even push.
Years ago Hot Rod or a similar magazine had a tripower vs G-jet shoot out on a near new '68 GTO with a 428 and TH400 with a 3.55 gear, IIRC. The ONLY change they made was to swap the stock Q-jet and intake with a '66 Tripower set up. NO other changes were made. In every run (there were 4 or 5 runs) the Tripower beat the single 800CFM Q-jet by about a full half second on the quarter mile. My bones stock '67 GTO convertible I've had forever is a base 335 HP TH400 car. I have run the stock Q-jet and a '66 Tripower on this car. (Q-jet has been on it for a long time now for economy/stock appearance). This car with the tripower feels at least 50 HP stronger than it does with the Q jet....especially on top end. There is no comparison. My 2 cents.....lots of guys put tripowers down, but in my 40+ years of driving them, I can say that they rock. They are also reliable, too, even though the ignorant will say otherwise.

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  #56  
Old 03-07-2021, 05:44 PM
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Good video Pastry, touché.
Truth.

One very powerful tool I've used for years evolved to use intake port C/D to select a critical "design velocity" for cam design. When I analyzed very many engine combinations I found "blind spots" or unknowns where this didn't work very well.
It really pissed me off. I demanded better so I spent many hours seeking better. I've settled on a R-squared of .995 with my personal equation. Not perfect but as good as I can expect. There are always unknowns,.

  #57  
Old 03-07-2021, 06:45 PM
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I think if I was going to run a tri'power again due to somewhat limited port height I would choose the new Edelbrock D' port heads no porting and be done with it
Plenty of capability with both and I dont believe there would be much of a mismatch anywhere

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  #58  
Old 03-07-2021, 07:05 PM
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The Glory Days '65 GTO ran low 10's with a '66 Tripower and 722 RAIV heads in the 1980's. I have the '66 intake that was used on that setup. Dan Whitmore did the engine work and modified the Tri-Power.

Regarding the use of a Tri-Power intake with aluminum heads, aluminum '66 or cast iron '65 or '66--We have modified an aluminum '66 Tri-Power intake to match the ports an Edlebrock RAIV aluminum heads. The engine is a Butler 467 stroker with Lunati Voodoo HRC. It was necessary to weld additional stock on to the top of the port area on the intake. I ported the manifold to match the ports on the heads. If you have someone who can weld on to the manifold, this is not difficult. We have not run the combo in the quarter mile, but that 'Bird runs like no Pontiac I've been in.

If you want pictures, I can post them, showing the amount welded on, port size comparison, etc.

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  #59  
Old 03-07-2021, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dick Boneske View Post
The Glory Days '65 GTO ran low 10's with a '66 Tripower and 722 RAIV heads in the 1980's. I have the '66 intake that was used on that setup. Dan Whitmore did the engine work and modified the Tri-Power.

Regarding the use of a Tri-Power intake with aluminum heads, aluminum '66 or cast iron '65 or '66--We have modified an aluminum '66 Tri-Power intake to match the ports an Edlebrock RAIV aluminum heads. The engine is a Butler 467 stroker with Lunati Voodoo HRC. It was necessary to weld additional stock on to the top of the port area on the intake. I ported the manifold to match the ports on the heads. If you have someone who can weld on to the manifold, this is not difficult. We have not run the combo in the quarter mile, but that 'Bird runs like no Pontiac I've been in.

If you want pictures, I can post them, showing the amount welded on, port size comparison, etc.

What carbs?

  #60  
Old 03-07-2021, 10:22 PM
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Has anyone ever seen one of these on a running car ?
Not sure if they ever were made. But a big high flowing single plane with 3 deuces might have been cool with ported aluminum heads would be cool.
https://headsandmanifolds.wordpress.com/

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