[Thumpin455_GTO]

John, names Todd. nice to meet ya... I wish I had a 69 bird, they are somewhat lighter than the 79 I have. Somehow I have it down to 3100lbs still all the steel body parts. Now it has 4.10s in it, the 467 seems to like them better than the 3.42. Since the last all iron engine, I stepped the bird up a bit. For me its a high dollar combo, roller, ported E heads, 1050, etc. I got a chunk of money from my last desert TDY and sunk it into my car.

The guy with the roller BBC is a chevy tech in Nebraska. It had bowtie heads and a 4 speed with 4.10 gears @ around 3450lbs. It ran 11.5 in street trim with a decent 60ft. It wasnt like it was a 2.0 or something crappy, it was 1.7 or better every pass. The 79 was 3700lbs with my 230lbs cutting 11.7 untill the track told me I need a cage. Best 60ft was 1.5 it was using an L88 type converter, stall was around 1900-2100rpm. Stone stock suspension, so it ran okay for no more than it was. I figure the other guy knew what he was doing since he was a tech. I know a 454 is capable of more, but his combo ran that. He had roughly double the $$ in it compared to mine.

Everyone is different, every car is different. There may have been more in the combo I had, but with no roll bar, I didnt push for more. Just dialed it back to 12.2 for brackets. The fun part was people asking if it was a big block, then asking how much I was spraying since it was a Pontiac. I had the bottle on it for a while, but with the 4.10s in it at the time, I only gained .2 in the 1/4, due mainly to the gears and RPM being maxed by the 1/8th. Stock rods suck for racing, but it was all I could afford.

I used to own a shop, worked on everything. Didnt like it much, made me not want to work on my cars. So I went back to the USAF in 2000, just got out last August. Kinda permanently retired from a real job, so I play with my toys. The USbody 67 Vette body has me interested, make it a sorta street car with the new 467 a possiblity. Maybe in a couple years when I have sold off the projects underway right now.

I dont like doing chevy, loathe is more like it. But since I dont want to sell a bunch of the Pontiacs I have lusted over since the early 80's, I build anything I can find. Right now its a 71 Mustang fastback that I bought back in 94 for $20. Next up is a mid 80s Blazer 4x4 I got for free.(long story) Who knows after that.

Buick V6 is an interesting piece, but I like large CI, low rpm, and NA. Less chance of me screwin something up. I have a couple 231s sittin around, but they arent turbo. no BES engines, just a bunch of cores, mostly 400s. I put Pontiacs in everything GM, even my 76 Shortbox 1/2 ton, the 305 wouldnt pull the car trailer good enough. A BBC core back home runs $800 or more, I can still find 400s for free, 455s cost more if you can find them. I run what I can afford, pure and simple. Sometimes I can afford more, sometimes not, but I never sell a car that has a race engine in it... lol. thats a good way to lose alot of $$.and cool parts.

[Steve Barcak]

I think a Pontiac in a Vette is a great idea. I like the older Vettes, pre '80. I even owned one, a yellow '79 I bought in '80. I had planned to put in a 428 as soon as it was paid for. I got tired of car payments and also found myself rubber necking Pontiacs while driving it so I sold it and went back to driving a GTO. I have never looked back.
I have seen 2 Vettes in the Phx area over the years with Pontiacs in them. I have also seen 2 or 3 magazine aticles over the years with Pontiacs in Vettes. One was a '62, the other was a mid year with a '63 421 SD and 4 spd. It ran 11's in the 60's. Certainly not a slouch.
I say go for it and do it. I'll save you a parking space for next years Pontiac Heaven IX.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[JSAauto]

455Dave....

Doing the Banchee clone thing would be a hoot just for the historical point of it. It would be like owning a 69 ZL1 clone or something. If you copyed it well enough, you'd have people at Pontiac shows freaking out walking up to the car. The reaction would be similar to someone seeing the old Mackellers 64 SOHC 421 GP!!

Is the Vette a SB or BB??

Originally Posted by Mo

A.S. The points you make about NHRA stock events are moot because GM didn't allow Pontiac to be competitive. How many RA5 455s were produced? GM let chevy do what they wanted and held the others back. So much for you trying to keep things "apples to apples" when your not allowed get pick your own apple. You have to use the one "they" say you are allowed to use. That is B.S. in my book.

Don't start whining Mo... it's un-becoming of you. Sucks working for somebody huh??

Oh yeah!! A R.A. 455 with that big pushrod tube right in the middle... I'm sure that would have really been competitive Please....

Didn't you ever wonder why it so hard to get a forged crank for a pontiac? Did you really?

I'm sure it's a conspiracy theory. Let me guess..... Did the martians have anything to do with it??

The fact is cheby was scared of Pontiac in the early sixties and made every effort to keep them from being competitve.

Again... sucks working for "da-man".

I am thankful that there were as many Hard Core Pontiac guys out there to pave the way for the rest of us REAL Pontiac guys. If not I'd probably drive an AMC..NOT!

To be a "real" Pontiac guy you've got to own an ORIGINAL copy of Pete McCarthys "Pontiac Musclecar Performance 1955-1979". If you don't, you can't be part of the "real Pontiac guy club".

And before you go making more blanketed silly statements. AMC wasn't anything to laugh at either. Remember the Drag-on lady?? Guys that met her at the starting line did. One of the baddest S.S. AMC's that ever lived.

http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/race/shahan02.jpg

http://www.draglist.com/Pictures/POD...POD-051002.htm

I hope you realize I'm just ribbing you to get a reaction right??

Hey Todd....
I for some reason thought you were John Langer because of Mo's comment, "John Langer wins again". So some of the stuff I posted might have been confusing and was directed thinking you were Langer.

Sounds like you've got a cool ride though.

The dude with the BBC that couldn't get into the 10's has a serious problem with his set up. Bowtie heads out of the box are capable of 340+ cfm's and we've modified them to 400 cfm. My Camaro (3560 lbs) with an all iron 468 and a roller cam ran 10.32, and it was only 11.6 to 1 and a 3500 stall. And I drove my car to the track!!

It's good to see you're keeping the Pontiac faith alive and well!!

Peace to you.

Hey Steve....
Hopefully next year me and Hary K will make it out to your show. I've still got a 69 Bird thats 1/2 way finished. Been sitting on the rack in my shop now for 5 years. 455 HO motor w/ S.D. rods... at least 15K invested in just parts..... all the best stuff. Just sooooo many projects that I have to finish and trying to keep up with the constant work flow. I can't complain... we're very busy. But it would be nice to take the Bird back out again and do some terrorising.

[455Dave]

John,

It's SBC, I had one 69 427 car and it handled a lot worse than the SBCs I've owned, never wanted one again. I'm trying to get a permit to put a detached garage out back. Once it goes up the vette goes in and will sit until I figure out what to do with it. I've got a 71 Formula that needs a resto and will probably pick up a 71 bird before the garage is built. The current argument here is which car get's done first.

[Donovan]

Hijack!

I'm curious. What are the brakes like on a C3 Vette? Are they any good?

[JSAauto]

They're good. But the C4 and C5 stuff is even better. You lookin to do a swap or something on a car?

[Donovan]

I have C5 parts but don't want to convert the rims to a size that will hold them just yet. Considering "JL8" conversion. Parts are very plentiful, good rebuilds are common as are good pads.

[455_PWR]

Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, etc.. they are all as fast as the other, just the person who invested more and knows what they are doing will win. I'd use the 455 personally because chevy's (and fords) are like excuses EVERYONE has them so they really aren't that unique in my opinion. Oh, and Pontiac was always held back cause GM didn't want anything faster than the vette' -it would take away their sales! If chevy guys want to brag up that corporate crap...go for it... but I'll always use poncho motors.

[JSAauto]

455PWR....
You're kinda late to the (thread) game.

Your Poncho patriot partner in crime Mo already used the "Yeah, funny how the 68 vette looks alot like the 'not allowed because it will hurt corvette sales' Banshee", or "The points you make about NHRA stock events are moot because GM didn't allow Pontiac to be competitive", or "The fact is cheby was scared of Pontiac in the early sixties and made every effort to keep them from being competitve. Ban on Racing, CID limits, HP limits and so on. We have heard it over and over".

Ok... I get it already. But now you guys don't have anymore excuses with Tiger/Kaufman heads, forged cranks, and the aftermarket blocks. So stop yer whinin!!

How about stickin a 3 rotor turbo wankle motor in it? That is.... if you really want to be original.

Nobody has any excuses when a Mazda engine without pistons that displaces 1.3 liters in a crappy Toyota Tercel and does a 7.4 at 180 MPH.

http://media.putfile.com/Anais740/wide

[7T2]

say js,
since you have flowed bbc stuff. what do most of the aftermarket bbc heads in the $2500-$3000 price range flow out of the box? do the figs vary much going from 4.5" bore down to 4.25"? has the issue of 12-14% flow differential between good and bad intake ports been resolved with the standard layout?
jim

[JSAauto]

7T2.... actually I personally haven't flowed the stuff I put together. I usually leave that to my guys at West Coast Cylinder Heads in Reseda, Ca (the old Hogans Heads shop). But me and Richard have been good friends for some 20 years now and I spend alot of time over there. Especially when it's my projects that are in the works.

Right now they've got a pair of those new Edelbrock 24's, and they look pretty nice. Edelbrock guarantees this head in their CNC'd version for 900 hp. Well into the 400 cfm range.

Of course bore size greatly influences how a head flows, and when you're dealing with Chevies bias towards the cylinder wall vs the center of the cylinder, bore sizing is everything. Doing anything less than .060 over on a 454, and opening the throats on a std cast iron head is a waste of time. But when this is done, the gains are huge.

The 12-14% you mention depends on core shift sometimes. But you are right. There can be quite a bit of difference between ports in a BBC. That is why you need a good head porter.

[JSAauto]

7T2....
Take a look at these. 400 cfm int, 300 cfm exh on a SMALL BLOCK.

http://www.allproheads.com/images/2005AllProCat.pdf

I love those LS motors.

[7T2]

interesting pics. things that make you go hmmm...
like the chamber design with the large relief on the longside radius. unless its a shadow- looks like the relief isnt bowl shaped- but almost a smoothed out step. certainly this serves to reduce "squish" and turbulence... but is there a hidden benefit of said step in intake port design, since the chamber is essentially an extension of the port?
about the bbc flow bias- not all can be relegated to core shift. i have a flow bench and will assert that its in the design of the heads with relation to the approach of the port to the position in chamber.
more specifically, the port which delivers the charge towards the center of the bore shows significantly better flow #'s than the port with flow centerline exiting in a trajectory towards the cylinder wall...
case studies are of an edelbrock rpm cyl head, and a factory square port open chamber "70 hi perf example. both show similar delta % flow shifts.
subsequent to this- i wonder if the delta flow factor will precipitate a corresponding offset in egt's on the dyno?
can also test this on my land and sea 1600.
jim

[JSAauto]

7T2....

I would assume the chamber design for ProHeads LSx heads are to increase air flow of the intake valve and swirl to a degree. The small split between the chamber at the spark plug also helps in "shearing" which helps with atomization.

Squish I don't think is a problem either with a 50cc chamber. With the right mirror image piston, you could easily get 14:1 compression. Turbulence in the bore can be effected by a various number of reasons, one being chamber or piston head design. Since these motors are mostly fuel injected, the injector spray pattern on the newer LS7's are pointed right at the spark plug when the intake valve open. I don't think you could get better fuel/cylinder filling or fuel suspension than that. But then there's always direct injection like the current electronically injected diesels have.

Not sure the point your trying to make about the difference in flow between ports as this has been common knowledge for quite sometime about the Chevy BB. But it's more than workable with good porting knowledge.

Take a look at the new Victor 24's from Edelbrock. Richard has one on the flow bench as we speak and they are working out new CNC ports for them. Pretty impressive for an "out of the box" cylinder head huh??

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...b_victor.shtml

Of course the cylinder charge will affect peak and average combustion temps. Just as cam profiles would (again... affecting cylinder charge). But again... can be massaged by working and balancing the ports as best as possible. Just like the NASCAR guys, they treat an 8 cylinder engine as 8 one cylinder engines. I would assume that anybody trying to achieve max perf from any combination would lean towards this methodology.

[7T2]

the point about the flow was a question as to if you had seen this personally and if the aftermarket had corrected for it, if so- as to advise my bbc friend how to correct this.
btw... how much do those 24's cost assembled anyway? what kind of gains in flow with cnc?
jim

[mtnxtreme1963]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I saw an old vette I think 66 on Pinks a couple of weeks ago, it had a Pontiac motor in it and spanked the hell out of a BB Nova every time.

[7T2]

sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
there will be more of that where that came from young man!

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

I just seen this post!!! I will post pics of our 1978 Stingray with a Pontiac in it!!! :-) Yes it's true it has been my lil secret project!!! All I need is headers!!!! Oh yeah!!! It is also Four Linked!! Yes this Corvette is expected to run in the 8's EASY!! I will take some pics this weekend!! Oh yeah this car actualy has a killer paint job. Not like my 75 TA!!
Be Cool,
Ace

[JSAauto]

WHY KEN WHY WHY WHY WHY!!!??? AAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAA (crying) haahahahahahahahahahhhaaaaaaa...

That's sacralidge!!!!

Hee-hee.... I'm kidding. I'm sure anything you put together will be sweet. Please post some pics for us Ken.

Mtnxtreme63... I think someone did mention it. I just recently got turned onto Pinks and that show can be good and other times ok. Just saw a Honda get placed against a Mustang with a Chevy SB in it. Didn't seem like a fair fight because of how much faster the Stang was. Saw a REALLY NICE Nova race a junkyard dog (I think another chevy). The Nova got his arse kicked. Of course it's such an apples and oranges deal sometimes that it's rediculous. From there it boils down to how much someone can sandbag or make it look like their car is slower. It's sensationalism at best.

Originally Posted by 7T2

the point about the flow was a question as to if you had seen this personally and if the aftermarket had corrected for it, if so- as to advise my bbc friend how to correct this.

When I was having work done on my iron stuff years ago, there was much in the way of "work" done to the ports to equalize them. And then again with many other projects that have left our doors...... it really isn't an issue for us, as were more concerned with port volume vs. raw airflow potential unlike the Pontiac stuff where were always trying to get the airflow.

btw... how much do those 24's cost assembled anyway? what kind of gains in flow with cnc?

Not sure what they cost... which is why I posted the Edelbrock link. Maybe a search on Jegs?? I was told the 24's are new from Edelbrock. Waiting to see what gains Rich is going to see from these as I have a cust wanting to build a big inch N/A BBC for the street. I'm sure Edelbrock knows what they're saying when they say...

"The only out-of-the-box [CNC ported version] head on the market capable of 950+ horsepower from a conventional port location big-block head "

"340cc intake ports flow 390 cfm [unported "as casted" versions], producing a higher velocity flow for improved throttle response"

[lunaticeh]

Hey guys, thought I'd wander into the purists vs. the others debate. Purists like to only see Pontiac's in Pontiac's,which I have no problem with. The others like to experiment and do engine swaps and stuff. Isn't that what hot rodding is about? I feel that as long as you stay within the corperation, why not do it. At one point in time GM was lucky enough to have multiple divisions producing cars, all with their strong points. What's wrong with taking something from one division and adding it to another if the owner/builder will be happy with the end result? Example.. every Chev I've owned, has gotten Pontiac seats to do the better design, ergonimics, and comfort of them (82-92 F-bodies). Do Ford guys get bent out of shape when Lincoln and Merc guys start swapping flatheads, 302's, and the like? What about the Mopar guys when Hemi's go in Dodges's, Chrysler's, Plymouth's, Fargo's, and other Pentastar offshoots? Now at the risk of upsetting the purists, I'm putting a SBC in my 50. Would I like a Pontiac in it? Of course I would, except for the fact there's an allready built 406 on my garage floor waiting for a home so why not. I've played with sprint cars all my life, and have seen some very respectable numbers made on the dyno. So for me SBC's are familier territory, and maybe someday I will put a big inch Poncho in it.... or maybe I'll just build the big inch SB Donovan I've been craving... However it ends up, it'll be something I'll be happy with. I'm the one who has to drive it anyways, not everybody else... so I'll build it how I want... not how you want. Everything in good humor right guys.. That's my $0.02...