#61  
Old 07-15-2017, 09:03 PM
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John V., direct the question to Mike Noun, he should be able to answer your question on the hours line.

  #62  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by John V. View Post
HFR, my Data Plate shows 620419.

Is there a known decode for this?

I see patrick1234's is 620779.

skunkwerks, glad you jumped in. The Boss and I seem to have been the main skeptics. The partial VIN that Burgess posted does seem to eliminate the idea that it was a Pontiac Plant stamping. In particular, I note the "5" looks the same as on the '72 posted earlier and very different from the "5" seen on the subject ZC block. I'll accept your explanation as very plausible.

I think The Boss expresses a valid concern about possible grinding of what might have been a partial VIN. Worth a better look at that area. But if that checks out, I have no dispute.

The Bondo'd engine code area raises suspicion. But the fact that it was then marked as a XL code lends credence to the idea that whoever did it was led to believe the XL would be correct when in fact as a pre-March 15 Car Build, the XL is obviously incorrect.

And all signs indicate it should be a ZC, I am in full agreement on that point. But not a "rolling change" at all, not sure why you mentioned that. I now believe that all early year TAs and 455 Formulas produced for the Calif Market with auto trans and points Dist got the ZC as intended. The error is in the early year Engine Chart that failed to identify the ZC & ZA usage properly.

On the subject of the emissions decal, the Revision date on the drawing would have nothing to do with the Release Date for implementation of the changes. The drawing revision simply pre-dates the Engineering Release Date.

It is well established that the new Engine Codes entered production on March 15, 1973 (a Thursday) to comply with the EPA order. The PMD issued booklet that I mentioned earlier outlines this fact and a ton of other info about the related changes that were made.

The EUN breakpoint was 532727. The booklet also mentions that there were about 700 engines in inventory with EUNs below 532727 that were converted and confirms that they were to be repainted the darker blue engine color. Trans codes also changed. Even the Warranty Booklet and the Maintenance Schedule Folder were changed, all as explained in the 16 page "MID-YEAR EMISSION CHANGES" document sent out by the PMD Service Dept. that I have.

The Emission Label drawing Revision block shows that ZC & ZA were added on 8/9/72. I'm certain the ZC & ZA engines were released in time for the start of '73 Production. Perhaps they were designated late for F body use which might explain why the F body usage was not identified in the early Engine Chart. But it doesn't explain why the early Engine Chart failed to identify the ZC & ZA as California Only. Or why certain other codes weren't noted as "except California" on that same chart. That was surely a mistake.

I was surprised to learn that the ZC & ZA had a specific Emissions Label. That further establishes that patrick1234's TA was originally equipped with the ZC despite the fact the Shop Manual failed to show the F body application for it.

On 1/23/73, the drawing was revised again to reflect the March 15 engine codes, the ZC, ZA and all the rest of the early engine codes were removed from the drawing at that time.

The PK sticker continued in use for the late year XE, XL, XM, & X7. Curiously, the XA, XJ, XO, XT, & XY codes that appear in the late Engine Chart are NOT reflected on this Label Drawing.

I suspect there was a subsequent Revision to this drawing because I count about 15 new engine codes that are missing from the label drawing. Unless there was some consolidation of Engine Codes not reflected on the late Engine Chart, these missing codes needed to have a label associated with them.

The EGR change was NOT a rolling change. By all accounts, PMD continued building '73 cars with the original EGR equipped engines right to the EPA ordered cut-off date. This allowed PMD to use up as much inventory of Engine Assemblies as possible (to avoid having to convert them) but on March 15, by EPA order, they had to begin installing the new system.

What the label drawing does show is that PMD began the work to initiate the changes long before March 15. A LOT of engineering was involved before the change could be implemented in production. I'm sure PMD negotiated for as much time as they could. It would have been a pretty huge engineering task to reconfigure the emissions system and make all the changes that had to go along with that. I'm guessing EPA gave them about 90-120 days once the final order was issued and they had probably been in discussion and negotiation virtually from the start of '73 production as I'm guessing it didn't take long for EPA to realize what PMD had done and would have immediately called them on it to demand a change.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that PMD might have stopped all production of '73s for a few days in order to prepare for the changeover of engines, trannies, etc. at all Final Plants to commence on Thursday March 15.

Regardless how it was executed, you can imagine the scramble that was involved. But I am convinced production of cars with the new EGR began on March 15 and not before.
John,
to clarify, rolling change on paperwork and documented book from GM. This was a clear oversight in some books as it was too expensive the change everything. Just saying.

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  #63  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick1234 View Post
Thanks for input Skunkwerks. I'm convinced this is an original block thanks to the learned crowd on here.

To the grinding gang: Why would somone grind part of a vin off and not all of it? It would be impossible to do this without creating a gouge. The face of this block is flat as can be. The face would have to be surfaced to completely get rid of an original stamping, this would affect the other stampings on the same plane. Included is an overall pic of the face.
I hate to see someone's stampings being told by others that it is not matching and looks questionable. People hand stamped these items in most cases. They did make mistakes.
You can clearly see the surface of your block is not ground on. You can see the broach marks under the entire rebuilders stamp. No grinding in that area. Only way this is fake is if someone re-broached this block in the same manner as GM did and had the exact same stamps to forge it. No way in hell this is even questionable. Rolling change of GM paperwork and books is to blame simple as that. Glad you did not panic like the original owner.
Enjoy you numbers matching car.

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  #64  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
Having dealt Directly with the Gm Authorized "maker" of the stamps in question, and knowing how easy it can be to make a mistake when setting up the device, This all looks fine to me. These union guys at Any assembly plant back then often had Liquid Lunches. Anyone ever see the very Last Super duty Engine stamp from 1974?
The Stamp holder has an edge and usually there is a jig or bracket on engine to align the Vin. With a Jog, the operator had to hold the Jig And the stamp holder, while swinging the Correct hammer, on a Direct hit, to get a "perfect stamp" . Having done a few for SR blocks for Corvettes at the dealership, I can say its Not all super simple.
A simple error of the "Wrong" Hammer can cause a Thread like this 45 years later!!
Stamps holder 3 lbs, EMPTY
Hammer required is a 5 Pound Dead blow ( You can easily see this was NOT used on the very last Super duty)
Jig is 7 oz. used to space off the timing cover
X2^^^^^^^

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  #65  
Old 07-18-2017, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skunkwerks View Post
I hate to see someone's stampings being told by others that it is not matching and looks questionable. People hand stamped these items in most cases. They did make mistakes.
You can clearly see the surface of your block is not ground on. You can see the broach marks under the entire rebuilders stamp. No grinding in that area. Only way this is fake is if someone re-broached this block in the same manner as GM did and had the exact same stamps to forge it. No way in hell this is even questionable. Rolling change of GM paperwork and books is to blame simple as that. Glad you did not panic like the original owner.
Enjoy you numbers matching car.
You must not have eyes. Anyone can see the grinding in this picture and when we asked for a better picture of this area we got one from 10 feet away and then one of a carpenters level laid over the area to prove straightness.

And lets just add things up here - bondo and re-stamp on Engine stamp (proves someone had access to correct stamps and the intent to defraud), Grinding & large numbers where VIN SHOULD BE and then matching VIN in wrong place. I'm not arguing Engine code, timing of VIN or casting date or anything else but when someone has monkeyed with a block to this extent, I would question it!

If you don't form questions after all of this....well, I'll end it there!


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  #66  
Old 07-18-2017, 12:50 PM
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Boss,
I can see the consistent broach marks under the 5 digit stamp that is not the correct font for any( and I do mean any) font used by all and I do mean all GM assembly plants. That means Chevy, Poncho, Buick, Olds and Corvette. So your argument is not valid. The font on the 5 digit vertical stamp would have to be correct for your point to be valid and it is clearly not. The marks above it look like razor blade scrapper marks or scuff marks. See it all the time as I do my own rebuilding of these engines. Plus these blocks get drug around on the rebuilders floor and scrapes are added all the time to the faces. Not to mention that The VIN you say is in the wrong place is not wrong. I have seen a bunch of these stamped this way. Got 3 455 HO TA's at the house from Norwood right now that look the same. Robots did not stamp these blocks. I have my Numbers match 1970 RAIII TA WS block that has a rebuilders stamp over the first part of my VIN on the block so I guess by your standards its questionable. I have rebuilt more than 500 motors over the years and have a good pic library of motor stamps.
Questions yes but reasonably explainable BIG YES. Upper code is correct and so is the lower VIN and has correct broach under the VIN. If this block was faked it would have had to have been a non VIN stamped block with correct date and someone had access to the original stamps. Highly unlikely since everything else looks correct.
but if you think there is something wrong then so be it. Hard to convince some people because they hate to be wrong no matter what.
I know it is 100% legit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boss View Post
You must not have eyes. Anyone can see the grinding in this picture and when we asked for a better picture of this area we got one from 10 feet away and then one of a carpenters level laid over the area to prove straightness.

And lets just add things up here - bondo and re-stamp on Engine stamp (proves someone had access to correct stamps and the intent to defraud), Grinding & large numbers where VIN SHOULD BE and then matching VIN in wrong place. I'm not arguing Engine code, timing of VIN or casting date or anything else but when someone has monkeyed with a block to this extent, I would question it!

If you don't form questions after all of this....well, I'll end it there!


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Last edited by skunkwerks; 07-18-2017 at 12:55 PM.
  #67  
Old 07-18-2017, 01:26 PM
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1st Pic of 1973 TA Norwood Vin stamp on Motor. 2nd 1970TA and 3rd 1970 WS code. Click on pic for larger image. Kind of looks familiar. which one is fake?






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Last edited by skunkwerks; 07-18-2017 at 01:49 PM.
  #68  
Old 07-18-2017, 02:50 PM
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Scrape mark from being dragged across the floor? Razor blade? Is that honestly your explanation for those marks? Seriously?

I see the broach marks too - but we aren't talking about the broach marks.

You could build a million motors & I still wouldn't like this one - thankfully I don't have to!

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  #69  
Old 07-18-2017, 03:20 PM
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Ok Boss,
So provide one vin stamp from any GM assembly plant the matches up with your explanation and I will deem your argument valid. Until them I am more right than you will ever be with your flimsy reasoning.
Yup, building as many motors as I have and taken pictures of all of them plus more does give me a good idea of what is fake and what is real. Lets see you post some evidence to back up your story. Put up or shut up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boss View Post
Scrape mark from being dragged across the floor? Razor blade? Is that honestly your explanation for those marks? Seriously?

I see the broach marks too - but we aren't talking about the broach marks.

You could build a million motors & I still wouldn't like this one - thankfully I don't have to!

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  #70  
Old 07-18-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by skunkwerks View Post
Ok Boss,
So provide one vin stamp from any GM assembly plant the matches up with your explanation and I will deem your argument valid. Until them I am more right than you will ever be with your flimsy reasoning.
Yup, building as many motors as I have and taken pictures of all of them plus more does give me a good idea of what is fake and what is real. Lets see you post some evidence to back up your story. Put up or shut up.
I'm not arguing the other number is a VIN, it's clear it doesn't match the correct typeface. I am arguing that the face has been tampered with, that it was bondoed, stamped with a different block code and ground on. There is an assumption the numbers there are a shop stamp because you have no other explanation although it is equally as likely and probable that they were a botched attempt at a VIN for another car - not this one.

Just like you I've seen a lot of blocks - I have seen a block stamped with a Pontiac plant VIN in small font - clearly a fraud and if I told you the car you would know it. We've seen blocks stamped with the VIN in the EUN location - also frauds! So don't act like this one is an absolute, because unless it's been in your living room it's entire life you cannot say definitively what has happened with it!

If you want to come back for another round - change your tone, I don't argue with children!

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Old 07-18-2017, 04:43 PM
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Just so you know, your last demand for me to produce proof is an argument from ignorance. My lack of proving that is a vin in no way proves the block is legit.

Quote:
Argument from ignorance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

true
false
unknown between true or false
being unknowable (among the first three)

In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

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  #72  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:44 PM
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Wore my "I'M EVIL" T-shirt today, so I thought I'd share my 1973 Oldsmobile VIN stamp. Along with it's transmission.
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  #73  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:05 AM
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Last night I was looking for info about certain '72 Engine Codes related to the thread on "Interesting block stampings". Haven't found what I was looking for yet but I came across something that pertains to this thread.

Back in '99, I helped a guy decipher the Engine Code on his '73 TA.

Turns out he also had a TA first delivered to California with the Cal Emissions Test requirement.

His block was VIN matched and he was trying to learn why the "ZC" code stamped on it was not listed for Firebird use in the reference books. He was also being led to believe by other hobbyists that the "correct" code for his TA was YC according to available references. Sound familiar?

The subject car was built March, '73. He explained that the engine appeared original, no indications of tampering of codes, and the engine had never even been repainted. But since the reference books didn't list the ZC for the TA he was questioning if it could be a transplant. The EUN was 444xxx, so prior to the March 15 EGR change.

I concluded then that the reference books were wrong and his ZC was correct for his Calif delivered TA and VIN matched.

Reached the same conclusion about the ZC this time around. Kinda interesting that the ZC in a TA remains a mystery 18 years after I first encountered one. The owner of the earlier TA even fretted that it wouldn't be easy to have the hobby accept the ZC even if he discovered other '73 TAs with the ZC (or ZA code for the K65 option that we also discussed at that time) since the facts about it were unpublished.

I had certainly forgotten about the earlier encounter. I have added notes to my own reference material about the ZC and ZA usage for the F Body. But I'll bet it will still be an enigma 18 years from now in the general TA community.

  #74  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:09 AM
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Boss,
So let me get this straight. You called me blind in your previous post and I am somehow a child by pointing out your BS argument. Hmmm.
So let me see if I understand your position. You are saying that because of the accidental or intentional grinding and the extra stamped numbers on the face of this block somehow invalidates the other correct stamps on this block and you would call this questionable and would not purchase this car as numbers matching?
Glad all your stuff is perfectly stamped and correct. The robots were in good form on the day they made your cars. Your argument does not invalidate the correctness of the other stamps (my whole argument that seems to be lost with your sense of perfection). Stuff happens to these motors. If you cannot see that this stuff does not have to be perfect to be correct I feel for anyone that has to deal with your everything has to be perfect concept.
Enuff said. We agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't think I resorted to calling you names first. You started that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boss View Post
I'm not arguing the other number is a VIN, it's clear it doesn't match the correct typeface. I am arguing that the face has been tampered with, that it was bondoed, stamped with a different block code and ground on. There is an assumption the numbers there are a shop stamp because you have no other explanation although it is equally as likely and probable that they were a botched attempt at a VIN for another car - not this one.

Just like you I've seen a lot of blocks - I have seen a block stamped with a Pontiac plant VIN in small font - clearly a fraud and if I told you the car you would know it. We've seen blocks stamped with the VIN in the EUN location - also frauds! So don't act like this one is an absolute, because unless it's been in your living room it's entire life you cannot say definitively what has happened with it!

If you want to come back for another round - change your tone, I don't argue with children!

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  #75  
Old 07-22-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skunkwerks View Post
Boss,
So let me get this straight. You called me blind in your previous post and I am somehow a child by pointing out your BS argument. Hmmm.
So let me see if I understand your position. You are saying that because of the accidental or intentional grinding and the extra stamped numbers on the face of this block somehow invalidates the other correct stamps on this block and you would call this questionable and would not purchase this car as numbers matching?
Glad all your stuff is perfectly stamped and correct. The robots were in good form on the day they made your cars. Your argument does not invalidate the correctness of the other stamps (my whole argument that seems to be lost with your sense of perfection). Stuff happens to these motors. If you cannot see that this stuff does not have to be perfect to be correct I feel for anyone that has to deal with your everything has to be perfect concept.
Enuff said. We agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't think I resorted to calling you names first. You started that.
The grinding was not accidental and neither was the bondo and restamp - whatever else exists on the face of this block can be questioned for those reasons alone. I said before that I didn't like it and was glad that I didn't have to.

We can agree to disagree.

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Some guys they just give up living
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Some guys come home from work and wash up,
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  #76  
Old 07-22-2017, 08:45 AM
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Everyone keeps mentioning the XL stamp. Why is it I can't see any evidence of it? Even if it was stamped in Bondo, one should see the stamping.

  #77  
Old 07-22-2017, 09:46 AM
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The XL stamping was scraped off along with the timing chain cover gasket.

Maybe if the Boss asks real nice I'll give him a coarse in fabrication so he knows what grinding looks like and does to a flat surface.

  #78  
Old 07-22-2017, 12:12 PM
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I tried showing what a surface can look like, on my "Oldsmobile" Pontiac engine. I took a razor blade scraper to it.

I don't get how, if it was stamped, you can erase it. Even if it was stamped in Bondo.

  #79  
Old 07-22-2017, 02:10 PM
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You can see the xl stamp in this pic. When the bondo came off, the stamp came off, it wasn't stamped through the bondo. Probably was about 1/16" to 1/8" swipe of bondo. Even have a pic of scraping the bondo off revealing the ZC code and previously hidden eun number. The mastermind then painted the whole front and top of the motor in the car getting overspray on the firewall. This was surely to hide the fake stamp. I doubt there is any realation to that and the unknown verticle stamp on the block.

For "the boss" there are a couple ground numbers in the thread "interesting block stampings", so you know what grinding on numbers and blocks looks like next time.
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  #80  
Old 07-22-2017, 03:10 PM
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So, they covered up the EUN stamping too. Man, that's a lot of mud, to cover up what? The correct numbers? Leaving more questions than answers.

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