#21  
Old 10-28-2013, 02:40 PM
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Maybe because they started like this before they were installed. We tend to make them what we feel is the "best factory look".



BTW: All paints are just "close" to original because they are not original paints....

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:13 PM
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Mike, are you pulling your engine to paint it now?

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Old 10-28-2013, 04:06 PM
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I think what your missing is what color are you trying to copy . Also what year. I bought my car new & the blue on the engine to me was a baby blue or what most call a powder blue. It was on the car for about 8 years before it was pulled & repainted fro a rebuild, but I remember that the color it started was a different color when it was pulled. The baby blue that is scott's color is close to what the 73 baby blue was but the true 73 color was a bit lighter then the one scott has for his color.

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Old 10-28-2013, 05:04 PM
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Sounds like were narrowing it down a little further and look forward in hearing/seeing the results.

Bruce, its a disease and in my opinion it is the little correct detailing that sets off a car from the rest.
Appreciate the help from everyone in trouble shooting this one!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentwheelbob View Post
The darker blue swipe on the oil pan was mixed based on the PontiacPower codes from the referenced website. the other two swipes were both Tieman's.

70RAIII and I are going to do a double blind, round robin test. He is going to send me a can of OEM with a few vapors left, and I am going to send him some of the Pontiac Power and Tieman mixes. Once he and I each have multiple objects, painted with multiple mixes, with pictures taken in variable lighting with different cameras, we are really going to have fun with this debate.

here is the shipping invoice on the Tieman paint.



and a few more oil pan shots...







Glad I am not going to get carried away with the whole originality thing...

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Old 10-28-2013, 09:33 PM
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I wanna play. Here's a paint daub of Tiemann's '71~'73 blue paint over Ames '71~'73 blue and Ames late '73 blue.

Tiemann's Delstar acrylic enamel ate into the Ames paint causing it to crinkle.
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  #26  
Old 10-29-2013, 07:41 AM
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Yeah, I forgot I have a can or two of Ames engine paint floating around. I'll add that to the mix as well. I bought it before I let this whole situation spin out of control, and have just used it to paint a few small parts on the 455HO like the back of the damper. It definitely had a greener tone to it than the Tieman paint.

I think whoever talked about the folly of trying to use a 40 year old part that has been subjected to oxidation, rain, grease and 1000's of hours of high operating temperatures, is absolutely correct. Not that it make this any less fun, but a very valid point nonetheless. If I remember correctly, when I talked with Tieman he said he matched using the paint from the backside of a damper on an unmolested, low mileage engine.

Didn't our old pal Loffen have a page or two on his "tread" about engine paint colors?

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Old 10-29-2013, 08:30 AM
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Everyone will think I am a jerk saying this..but here it goes.. This color deal was settled a while back with the OEM colors. Tienmann seems to command a lot of respect(not by me, after conversations with him.. my daughter gets more from me) so that is why there is even a discussion today. Many think everything he does is gold.. If the board knew the truth, wouldn't think so. But he does do great body work and his paint jobs are bitch'in.. Anyway, sending bob a can of OEM today, will have it in a couple days.. We will see the difference, if there is any. I have not seen Scotts paint in person, I'm guessing it will not be correct, but I could be wrong..wouldn't be the first and will definately not be the last..

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Old 10-29-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 165th View Post
I wanna play. Here's a paint daub of Tiemann's '71~'73 blue paint over Ames '71~'73 blue and Ames late '73 blue.

Tiemann's Delstar acrylic enamel ate into the Ames paint causing it to crinkle.
ames looks to have better green hue than the other color. Assuming the non ames is the paint that is on 1/2 of the plate..

  #29  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 165th View Post
I wanna play. Here's a paint daub of Tiemann's '71~'73 blue paint over Ames '71~'73 blue and Ames late '73 blue.

Tiemann's Delstar acrylic enamel ate into the Ames paint causing it to crinkle.
Here's a clarification on this test panel:

The left half of the plate is Ames '73+ blue
The right half of the plate is Ames '71~'73 blue

The paint daub in the bottom middle of the plate is Tiemann's Delstar paint.

The paint daub in the middle (Tiemann's) is definately greener than the Ames which is bluer. I'm not sure if it reads that in these photos.

Scott clarified with me that he took the sample from the harmonic balancer after removing the lower pulley of a low mileage GT-37 15 years ago. The paint was solid, fresh and unsoiled. I couldn't think of a better sample to use for a color match. I wonder what OEM used to match their color? Anyone know?
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  #30  
Old 10-29-2013, 09:16 PM
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I do hope all you guys are taking in to account that there were 2 colors of blue in 73 & The color for the 72 is also a different color. Also if you can really think that a color would not change in 40+ years even if it's not been subjected to any heat or oil or any other things that would happen to an engine, well thats just wrong. All paint will change over time just from time alone, so even if Scott took the color from the back of a dampner it would still be a different color after 40+ years. Because of the emmissions rules for the 73 engines the blue was 2 different colors in 73. The color for the engines were changed after January 73 to show the EPA that these engines had been changed to meet the new std's for the 73 std's. So no matter what color blue you have it could be correct depending on when the engine was built & certified. Scott does build great cars but he is only guessing to , as any color he's using to copy wouldn't be excact after 40+ years. I use VHT SP122 for my engines that I have built for 73 cars. Thats what I've always used for my car which is a 73 GTO that I've had since new. I use to use the dupi-color but they changed the color blend to make it look more like the late model 75-77 blue which is closer to the old olds blue which is correct for the 75-77 cars. But to each his own , but if you use Scotts it's only close to . No one color is perfect , it's just what everyone will accept as correct, & no ones has it PERFECT.

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Old 10-29-2013, 11:59 PM
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I recently owned a 3000 mile '79 TATA and that paint looked exactly the same under the rear deck as it did in the nooks of the fenders and door jams and behind the carpet as it did on the top of the hood and trunk deck. Based on some of the logic in this thread I just have to ask myself 'I wonder what color it was originally?'

Earlier this spring there was a 14K mile unrestored '74 Firebird Formula Gulfmist blue for sale that I had the privilege of looking over prior to it's sale, and I can again say that paint was unchecked, not faded, and as best as I could tell had not changed color.

IMHO, and with all due respect, to begrudge a guy who goes to the trouble to try to replicate a color as close to original as any logical person could think of a way to do it, by saying he is just 'guessing', is at best illogical. Instead, I'd think anyone that chooses to use OEM, or any other color in which the person doesn't know the history or reasoning behind the color mix is.....'guessing'.

Bentwheelbob and RAIII, what are you going to use as the datum in the double blind to match the color shades from the various manufacturers to?

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Old 10-30-2013, 07:35 AM
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Thing is that Bob has both already for examples on paint as the Black Formula has OEM paint on engine by Steve. The one on stand is Scott's mix that he matched to a very original 71 455 HO long time ago.

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Old 10-30-2013, 08:57 AM
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I would think the Pontiac must have had a paint code or dinzer number or factory approved formula. I would think it must exist somewhere. Thanks for all the great comments.

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Old 10-30-2013, 02:11 PM
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Hay 165th were talking about ENGINE colors not body colors. But if you go there the color of the body will change over time just as well as the engine , but not as much because it doesn't have the heat cycles. But thats not what is being talked about. And yes if you don't have the excact mix you are just guessing no matter who you are or what you do for a living. It's in the facts not the fiction.

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Old 10-30-2013, 02:38 PM
'ol Pinion head 'ol Pinion head is offline
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In the pic on the back of the color samples of the license plate, only one color of enamel when it is subject to years of engine heat cycles is going to add a greenish tint & turn into another color represented. I'll give everyone a clue, the late '73 paint formulation is not it!

Its also amazing that transformed color just so happens to be evident in a high gloss form in the samples shown... why the high gloss on that particular paint sample? Is it because it looks pretty? I know Bill O can answer this, the question is for the rest of you

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Old 11-01-2013, 11:52 AM
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Ok, so preparations are underway for the big paint test this weekend. In case anyone thinks that I am approaching this scientifically, the main preparatory items included buying a fresh bottle of bourbon and a brisket for the smoker. The paints that will be sampled will be the OEM rattlecan, the Ames rattlecan, the Tieman mix and the Pontiac Power mix. To keep everything on an even basis (and because it has been a real long time since I used my HVLP) I stopped at NAPA this morning and had them put the Tieman and PPower mixes in rattlecans. I think I will stop this evening and purchase some melamine at Lowes to use as the test object. This way I can then cut it into smaller pieces and efficiently mail it out to those who are interested. I will also shoot samples on the oil pan, but I have no way of knowing if that paint is original.

When I got back from NY last night I did do a little playing around in the Hot Rod Garage. Below are a few pictures which show the "new" engine with Tieman paint, the oil fill cap from the Black Car with OEM paint, and as a tribute to Greg "The Hose Man" a license plate with Ames. As you can see, three very distinct colors. Also below is a picture from NAPA for scientific documentation. Hah.

One question I would like to hear a little feedback on is whether I should clear all the samples after they are applied to give an even sheen to all the different formulations.






  #37  
Old 11-01-2013, 12:43 PM
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On the first pic the oil cap looks like the correct color. By the photo, that looks like the right amount of green.

You know, you should not have posted what was what! I would have posted the colors to see what everyone thought with only you having the color key.

Dave

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Old 11-01-2013, 12:49 PM
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If you want it to look real pretty, I would clear it. Although they were not like that from the factory.

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Old 11-01-2013, 01:12 PM
70RAlll 70RAlll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necdb3 View Post
On the first pic the oil cap looks like the correct color. By the photo, that looks like the right amount of green.

You know, you should not have posted what was what! I would have posted the colors to see what everyone thought with only you having the color key.

Dave
2x the sheen. GM did not use full gloss engine colors. A bit much for my taste, but to each their own I guess...

As far as the colors, yes, the OEM color is the closest if not dead on./ The license plate is not even in contention, maybe that is the color of the >73 motors?? The OEM has the correct amount of green in it. Look at the original story linked earlier in this thread. Some guy shows his oil filter adapter, you can see the similar green quite well in that picture..

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Old 11-01-2013, 01:34 PM
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Bob, not sure what reason there would be to clear any of them, they weren't shot with clear at the Pontiac engine plant. Neither were radiators shot with a gloss black so shiny their tanks looked like hand rubbed lacquer...

The formula you have listed as the Pontiac Power Formula, is it the one Horst Fiedler contributed? If so, it should be the one Lars had published in the Legend in the late '80's. That is the formula I had mixed several times in the early 90's- late 90's & put in cans. The last time around, had a low mile pair of valve covers color analyzed (these had been removed & placed in a box for an older pair of Cal Customs in the Summer of '71). The mix was again, very very close.

As we know, the finish out of a can is not as nice & smooth as it out of a gun, so I'm glad you are going to shoot samples out of gun. I should have another pair of original valve covers off a 4,000 mile original '72. Know I still have the original engine out of that car & it has not been exposed to setting outside in the sunlight. Not sure if those components have had enough heat cycles to color shift or not. Was not concerned with that when I bought that particular Lux LeMans for parts.

Heat cycling brings out more of a green tint & thats is what we are seeing in one sample.. The other extreme, I often run across on the '71-early '73 paint is with the hood off on a parts/project car, or an engine setting in a core pile, the engine enamel tends to fade (bleach out) quite quickly.

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