[grivera]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's all pretty easy to explain. In Tuscon you're at about 2500 feet elevation. The higher up we go here, the more these engines can use timing. On the dyno the initial setting doesn't matter much because we are just looking for total timing where the engine makes best power. Vacuum advance isn't even used, and idle quality isn't that much of a concern and quite frankly while on the dyno the engine doesn't spend that much time idling anyway in most cases.

So you get the engine back, now you're near sea level, things are going to change a bit. Total timing where the engine made best power will probably be the same but how fast it comes in as well as where you put initial timing is likely going to change a bit when this engine is put in service. Toss in the fact you should also be running a vacuum advance unit, which also isn't used on the dyno, and it's a fairly good bet the engine simply may not want that much initial timing or vacuum advance added. The noise is dead nuts on the same thing I hear here with too much idle timing. It's only ever occurred idling and pretty much goes away with RPM, just as in your case, and never had any detrimental affects with this happening other than it can be annoying to some.

The noise the previous instance also makes sense and several of us have discussed this recently. With the bushing in the distributor eating itself, that shaft is moving all over the place. There is no way it can control timing doing that, so the timing is just everywhere and most likely over advanced in all conditions. Which explains why the rings had moly flaking off, that's typical of an engine with too much timing and detonation while under a load. That was just a fluke instance of an MSD part failure that isn't common, but things happen. Now the noise is back and exactly the same. Not because of a bad distributor bushing, but because there is likely too much idle timing setup in that distributor.. It's easy enough to change around and experiment with. The nice thing about those MSD's is they come complete with a timing chart and various bushings that bolt into the breaker plate to set the initial and total curves where you want them, and I've found those charts to be pretty darn close to accurate. 5 minute fix. If you're running vacuum advance, leave that unplugged for now until that part is dialed in, then slowly bring in some vacuum advance later.

Good troubleshooting advice! Do you by any chance have a video of the scenario you describe- an engine making noise at idle with timing too advanced?

[gtofreek]

Here is a video of a dyno pull. I'll check my video's later when I get home to see if I have one idling. Tried to post this a couple weeks ago but was having trouble with the forum seeing posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiSatCtuA3U

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I'm thinking along the lines of something with the ignition, be it a bad coil, incorrect wiring, timing, or in that area.

Another thought is a vacuum leak which is causing a gross lean condition.

The initial rough running as it started is an indicator, and THAT sounds like ignition to me.

I'm going to try to swing by there over the next week and take a look, bring a spare coil, and do a few checks. Thinking of isolating the ignition by going directly to the batt, and a new coil, leaving everything else disconnected. Will remove all the vacuum lines and plug them too.

.

Pick up a 3/8ths line maker and carry drill, bits and taps when you go.

Close fit on the TII but there is enough room to run the PCV to front center plenum.

Lean back-fire from #1 cylinder would be expected the way the PCV is hooked up now. It would also have a nervous skip at idle.

Clay

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Thanks for that information. That was informative and helps me understand a lot more.

gtofreek,

There is a reason that we never did anything on this motor without clearing it with you. NOT ONE thing was changed, altered, switched out, inspected without your suggestion or approval. That included the timing, going to a thicker oil, switching out rockers, lifters, pushrods, flex plate and having the heads inspected. Nothing fell on deaf ears other than my texts when I questioned you about certain things. This is why I have saved every text since I started this build.

I'm not going to have a pissing contest on a forum and post screenshots of your texts....like "The windage tray thing, I just plain messed up on and I'm sorry about that". Or "I still beat myself up over the windage tray. Can't believe that I messed that up after building hundreds of them". The deal with the carb was made because of the windage tray mistake that YOU said YOU made and I was charged for it before I could get my motor back. Otherwise, I wouldn't want, need or buy a $1,400 carb for a street car! I also haven't received the receipts that I asked for regarding the piston rings and bearings that were part of the $2,575 invoice that I paid before I could get my motor back. You know the invoice...the one where ALL of the labor charges were "Waived" and were NOT included in the invoice.

As I have said before, I would rather have a conversation more than anything else. Just because I ask questions was never meant to come across as I was accusing anyone of anything. I ask a lot of questions based on my inexperience and lack of knowledge. Due to the motor blowing up on the dyno over a pickup tube that was not secured and fell into the pan, a customer should be able to ask questions without feelings being hurt.

[John Milner]

That idle is way too low. I’d drive the car and work with the timing. Back firing like that also tells me the timing is probably off too. Put some miles on it. I would be willing to bet after it is tuned properly and driven that the noise will go away.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I showed Joe's video to another machinist who owned his own machine shop for over 25 years. I suggested nothing, just asked him to watch and see what he thinks the noise might be. As soon as it started knosking, the first words out of his mouth is "that's spark knock". I personally have never heard spark knock at an idle so I asked him to clarify. He said the engine is running too slow to deal with the amount of timing it has and it's causing a spark knock. Spark knock is NOT a machanical knock[which would explain why I found nothing in the engine that would cause a mechanical knock]. It's an ignition knock. This has been suggested many times in this thread but seems to fall on deaf ears.

I pulled the distributor when I got the engine back from dyno. I checked the busing which was fine and I restabbed the distributor BUT had no way of setting the timing. That is why I wrote on a piece of tape on the carb plate that the timing needs to be reset. It was only close enough to get the engine to start and run.

You need to get the idle RPM up and not down at 400-500 RPM. That's just ridiculously slow for an engine with this much cam in it. I only hear the knock at this really low idle. Pick the idle up, set the timing as I wrote on the tape, and disconnect the vacuum advance for the distributor and plug the vacuum port on the carb., then see if the noise is still present. I bet it won't be there.

Tighten up that alternator belt also. It's way too loose.


I feel once the timing and idle speed have been dealt with, the knocking noise will be non-existent.

Do this!!! Just validated the timing is not set on this motor correctly.

[Va68goat]

John Milner,

Yeah...I think I'm getting my hopes up with all this chatter about the timing. I wish I knew how to do this crap myself! It's frustrating but hell...it's been over two years...what's a couple of days or weeks!

[Va68goat]

torqhead,

100% it will be done. Hopefully SOON!

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

John Milner,

Yeah...I think I'm getting my hopes up with all this chatter about the timing. I wish I knew how to do this crap myself! It's frustrating but hell...it's been over two years...what's a couple of days or weeks!

This stuff is all actually very easy. Just get on youtube and search for lessons on how to do a tune-up etc.

Realistically, you need to know anyhow because this type of motor will need regular maintenance that includes things like checking and resetting timing, checking valve adjustments, cleaning and adjusting the carburetor etc.

I'm hopeful once you get some eyes on the timing and the curve, that your issue will be resolved.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I showed Joe's video to another machinist who owned his own machine shop for over 25 years. I suggested nothing, just asked him to watch and see what he thinks the noise might be. As soon as it started knosking, the first words out of his mouth is "that's spark knock". I personally have never heard spark knock at an idle so I asked him to clarify. He said the engine is running too slow to deal with the amount of timing it has and it's causing a spark knock. Spark knock is NOT a machanical knock[which would explain why I found nothing in the engine that would cause a mechanical knock]. It's an ignition knock. This has been suggested many times in this thread but seems to fall on deaf ears.

I pulled the distributor when I got the engine back from dyno. I checked the busing which was fine and I restabbed the distributor BUT had no way of setting the timing. That is why I wrote on a piece of tape on the carb plate that the timing needs to be reset. It was only close enough to get the engine to start and run.

You need to get the idle RPM up and not down at 400-500 RPM. That's just ridiculously slow for an engine with this much cam in it. I only hear the knock at this really low idle. Pick the idle up, set the timing as I wrote on the tape, and disconnect the vacuum advance for the distributor and plug the vacuum port on the carb., then see if the noise is still present. I bet it won't be there.

Tighten up that alternator belt also. It's way too loose.

As far as the windage tray spacing is concerned, I said it before and I'll say it again, the witness marks Joe and his friends saw are the witness marks I made when I first turned the engine over by hand. That is why I shimmed the tray in the first place. The rod bolts were just barely touching which is why the marks were so minimal. THE ROD BOLTS WERE NOT TOUCHING THE WINDAGE TRAY ONCE JOE GOT THE ENGINE! Which is why the noise was still present after they reshimmed it. Don't see why I should have to pay $950 for something that wasn't a problem in the first place. They saw the marks and just assumed they were fresh and causing the noise. I couldn't see the marks clear enough in the pic I was sent, but after seeing the marks in person, they were the same marks I remember making when I first discovered the bolts touching it.

I feel once the timing and idle speed have been dealt with, the knocking noise will be non-existent.

Bingo!

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I didn't want to comment, sounds like a rod/wrist pin knock (the result of detonation very likely here)
If timing isn't set then that is very likely.
Wait for someone with a light to set timing. Usually second thing I do when I start an engine, then top off/cap the rad. Oil pressure first check!
I wouldn't start it till you set the timing, definitely don't let it idle that low.

I think your going to be good to go!

[grivera]

Based on this new info re: dizzy being pulled- make sure you check firing order too.

[Va68goat]

JLMounce,
Yeah, I would try it but at this stage of the game, the last thing I want to do is something that I would regret. Way too much time and money invested. I will learn how to time a car but it's not going to be now.

Formulajones,
I don't get a "Bingo" for my response?

grivera,
Yeah...I'm getting antsy now. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

[torqhead]

Not putting salt in the wound here, but whoever was helping as soon as that motor coughed through the carburetor they should have immediately backed down the timing on it.

Whatever you do, do NOT run that motor any more until someone can verify the plug wires and turn that distributor counter clockwise to retard the timing before starting it again.

[GTO JONES]

I have been reading all of this going on and I just want to say I lived in Cincinnati (about sea level) had it tuned for that. When I moved to Arizona (about 5000 ft. elevation) had to completely change the tuneup, went down 2 or 3 jet sizes and pulled the MSD distributor and my son did the mods to it, set the timing at 34 deg, 571 cu in runs great . Fine tuning is a big part of it.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I pulled the distributor when I got the engine back from dyno. I checked the busing which was fine and I restabbed the distributor BUT had no way of setting the timing. That is why I wrote on a piece of tape on the carb plate that the timing needs to be reset. It was only close enough to get the engine to start and run.

Next time you do that..... scribe a mark on the distributor base and block. Also note where the rotor button is pointed. Then you can stick the distributor back in "exactly" where it was. No need to reset timing unless you change gasket thickness.

I suspect you knew that but others may not
Clay

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

JLMounce,
Yeah, I would try it but at this stage of the game, the last thing I want to do is something that I would regret. Way too much time and money invested. I will learn how to time a car but it's not going to be now.

Formulajones,
I don't get a "Bingo" for my response?

grivera,
Yeah...I'm getting antsy now. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

Go buy you a dial back timing light. When hwystr455 shows up I’m sure he’ll be happy to show you how it works and you can check things next year.

[Sun Tuned]

Did the worn bushing distributor get replaced by a whole different one? Or just a different housing?

I didn't see the answer to this if it was mentioned earlier.

I know the initial timing has been set. But if the original shaft that had the worn bushing was reused, isthere any possibility one of the or more than one of the reluctor teeth have been dinged and firing at different time than an equal 45 degrees for each of the 8?

Does this make sense?

I've seen it before.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

Did the worn bushing distributor get replaced by a whole different one? Or just a different housing?

I didn't see the answer to this if it was mentioned earlier.

I know the initial timing has been set. But if the original shaft that had the worn bushing was reused, isthere any possibility one of the or more than one of the reluctor teeth have been dinged and firing at different time than an equal 45 degrees for each of the 8?

Does this make sense?

I've seen it before.

Suntuned, it's been determined that the motor has not been timed correctly and was posted on the motor prior to shipping. Appears they just need to get a timing light on it, set it properly and should be good to go.

[JSPONT]

How old is the gas in the car? you said this project has been a while. Fresh gas I hope. For now I would let it idle 1000 rpm or more.
Hwy455 knows what to do, wait for him do not run it anymore until a timing light is on it.