[north]

Being a slow day I wasted a bit of my time this morning thinking about the comparison between a Judge and a TA in 69. Always wondered why the TA was outsold ten to one by the Judge? You could argue that the Judge especially the Orange ones would hold back the majority of buyers given it's questionable taste with that color and the stripes being so wild. The TA by comparison was actually more mainstream and more serious in nature with blue on white.

If you think of it they are both similar cars in terms of content; functional Ram Air and Ram Air 400, big wing, striping etc. I believe the main answer (apart from timing and promotional effort) is price:

I

[north]

So here goes a comparison with options added to each to make them comparable (I used summer 69 TA pricing):

Judge TA
Base price $3,156 (GTO) $2,734 (base Fbird)
Judge or TA option $337 $1,183
power steering $105 $ N/C
power disc brakes $64 $ N/C
HD Safe-T-Track $63 $ N/C
Sport steering wheel $42 $ N/C
White Wide-O-Ovals $40 $ N/C
Rally II wheels $ N/C $63
decor group $ N/C $62
interior lights $ N/C $7
shift knob $ N/C $5
Equivalent total $ $3,807 $4,054

$250 in 69 was a big number. Of course most buyers would add options like a 4 speed or TH400, radio, console etc but I didn't factor these since they cost the same extra on both cars. What also didn't help for the TA was that the $1,100 option price was unheard of back then, the Judge option seemed cheaper than it was by comparison because it was on top of the GTO (which as already $500 more than the Custom S).

[linden_gto]

Originally Posted by north

Judge TA
Base price $3,156 (GTO) $2,734 (base Fbird)
Judge or TA option $337 $1,183
power steering $105 $ N/C
power disc brakes $64 $ N/C
HD Safe-T-Track $63 $ N/C
Sport steering wheel $42 $ N/C
White Wide-O-Ovals $40 $ N/C
Rally II wheels $ N/C $63
decor group $ N/C $62
interior lights $ N/C $7
shift knob $ N/C $5
Equivalent total $ $3,807 $4,054

i'm going to say it had something to do with the size of that T/A option package of $1,183. that was a really big number back then, but it did take you from the base FB to the RAIII T/A (so you went right to base Judge engine level). in comparison, the $337 Judge package appeared like a much better deal, as it was only bringing you from the base GTO to the RAIII engine and the other Judge related items. that is one of the biggest factors i see, but you also have to consider the street cred that the GTO already had (that the FB likely didn't - as their primary performance car). by the time you hit the bottom line, the T/A (a new model on the base FB) was now more expensive than the Judge package, which was being considered as an upgrade on the already established GTO (not a base LeMans).

1969 numbers were nearly 10:1, as you mentioned. But '70 and '71 became much closer in overall production numbers (all available engines), with the T/A surpassing the Judge in '71.

'70:
Judge - 3797
T/A - 3196

'71:
Judge - 374
T/A - 2116

[north]

BTW, sorry my price comparison got compressed, a bit hard to follow without proper spacing and columns.

Good point about the change in 70 and 71. The 70 Judge was nowhere nearly as successful as the 69 with monthly sales running about only 1/4 of the 69 model. The new look 70 Firebird suddenly make the 70 A body look out of date. I'm sure monthly Judge sales would show a huge drop once the 70 TA came out in March I believe.

I always thought that 69 TA buyers developed big time buyers regret when the 70 TA came out a few months later! Don't get me wrong, the 69 TA is a sharp car but it must of looked 10 years old back then when parked beside a 70 TA.

[Diego]

The GTO had a much bigger image than the Firebird 400. And people knew the GTO wasn't going to be redesigned the next year, while the public knew a new Firebird was due in a year or less.

Plus, it's possible people sneered at the T/A because its engine did not meet the specs for that race.

[Bluesugar]

ok I have to comment on this as far as style;
if you take the outboard headlights off a '70 GTO(take your fingers and block out those
headlights on a front-end pic shot of said model),what do you have?,...a '70 firebird!!
the '70 GTO was a one year only model front-end style,...Beautiful!!
the '70 firebird kept their front-end style for four years,...you could say,..bor-rrring,
I love the '70 bird and '70 GTO whether they are a Trans-Am or a Judge.....
I am expressing my opinion only because I have one(an opinion an a '70 Judge),
but the body styles of said models are more rare and more valuable for the '70 A-body
GTO

[tom s]

I would think from a perspective of actually owning both the ride diff is huge.If they were both on the floor and you took them for a test ride IMO there is night and day diff.The GTO is kind of soft,comfortable and floatyThe T/A is much stiffer,firmer and not as comfortable of a ride.I sold my bird to build the Judge,after getting it done even at 70 plus I missed the flat quick steering bird.Sold the Judge to a board member and bought the bird back.Still have it and dont miss the Judge.FWIW,Tom

[ponyakr]

If we would have known which cars would be high dollar collector models, many of us would be rich today. Even those worth over 100k, today, could be bought new, for less than $5k. The multi-million dollar Mopars come to mind.

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/5-muscl...-for-millions/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopar...ions-at-mecum/

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ve-mopar-ever/

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/01/...e-auction.html

[rwfisher]

Advertising, advertising, advertising!!! GTO's in general as well as the Judge option were much better known and desired by many over a Firebird anything... My father traded his '67 Firebird 400 for a '69 Firebird Ram air III. He worked at a Pontiac only dealership and wasn't even aware of the Trans Am option.. He never saw one roll thru that rural dealership either. I still think the pricing would have pushed the favor to the Judge and the leaks of what a '70 T/A was going to look like probably put the cap on it (my father traded the '69 for a '70 model late in the model year)....

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by rwfisher

Advertising, advertising, advertising!!!

^^^ This.

[kaysersuzuki]

i didnt know what it would be worth when i bought my convert in 78 but i paid $50.00 for it then

[kaysersuzuki]

the judge i bought 15 years ago for $1000.00

[NEW64OWNER]

GTO's were a hot 6th year item and 69 TA was an unknown and almost non existent.

[north]

All good points, when you think of it the sold less than 700 TA's and Pontiac had north of 4,000 dealers at that time so 90% of dealers probably never had a TA.

A point we all tend to forget is both the TA and the Judge got very bad press when they came out.

Not many people could have predicted in 69 that while 50% of all Jude's ever to be built were built in the first 6 months of 69 the TA had a 34 year future ahead of it and in its tenth year it would sell at almost 200 times the rate it did in 69!

[MikeNoun]

Actually, the 1970 GTO was styled after the 1969 Firebird. A body colored bumper is all it takes to make 1969 Firebird 400 look like a 1970 GTO.




The 1969 Judge was really a spoof of the muscle car scene according to Jim Wangers. The 1969 Trans Am was serious performance car and contained all the knowledge Pontiac had put into performance cars up to that point. The two cars were marketed to different buyers.

The reason for the high price of the 1969 Trans Am was because it also included the Firebird 400 Ram Air option ($424.44), but more importantly the Trans Am option consisted of many unique parts, meaning the car was more expensive to produce.

SPOILER
---------
1969 Trans Am - a rear pedestal spoiler plus a front spoiler to balance the effect of the rear wing, Both spoilers combined allowed the Trans Am to maintain a level ride at high speeds, helping aerodynamics immensely.

1969 Judge - rear pedestal spoiler only, which unfortunately caused the nose of the car to rise noticeably over 60 mph.

HOOD
------
1969 Trans Am - special hood stamping that was not shared with other Firebirds. The hood required special tooling which had to be absorbed in the cost of the Trans Am option price and passed on to the consumer.

1969 Judge - standard GTO hood.

FENDERS
----------
1969 Trans Am - special front fenders with large, kidney shaped vents to extract trapped underhood air at high speeds. Rearward facing scoops to extract air from those vents had to be installed, and again, more tooling, more labor, more costs.

1969 Judge - standard GTO fenders.

SUSPENSION
--------------
1969 Trans Am - thicker front sway than the Firebird 400. New tooling.

1969 Judge - standard GTO sway bar.

PAINT
------
1969 Trans Am - painted on stripes (not stickers) the full length of the body. This required an extra step in the build process similar to the Z/28. The workers had to manually mask off the car to paint the stripes in the in-line repair booth after the oven bake. This meant the hood, cowl, roof, rear filler, and trunk lid all had to be masked and painted. Also, the rear tail panel was masked and painted blue. The car was then re-baked in the repair oven before the body went back to the Trim Shop. A lot of extra labor involved here. Trans Am stickers were applied to front fenders and rear wing.

1969 Judge - stickers were applied to the sides of the car, front fenders, and rear wing, all regular assembly line procedures.

So there's a reason The Judge option was $337.04 and the Trans Am option was $1,098.48. There was a lot more labor and tooling involved in making a Trans Am than a Judge. Pontiac also deliberately left Rally II Wheels off the standard equipment list for the 1969 Trans Am to keep costs down and they felt many Trans Am buyers would opt for lightweight aftermarket wheels.

As for the 1969 Trans Am being outdated once the 1970 Trans Ams came out, many felt the same way when the 1968 GTO was introduced. It was a spaceship compared to the boxy 1964-1967 GTO's, but that didn't cause owners of 64-67 GTO's to immediately trade in their cars on a new 1968.

Mike

[Bluesugar]

ahaaaa,....let me think,...yeah,....now I got it,..the frigging '69 bird didn't have an
enduro bumper even though the '68's & '69's GTOs were designed with one(of course
the '68 GTO could come with an enduro delete option),but I am to believe that you were
meant to imagine what a '70 GTO would look like in '69 if you just painted the bumper of a bird that year (wonder why the factory never gave that option,let alone an enduro cast).
Yeah MikeNoun, don't count on me agreeing with much more you have to say.

[MikeNoun]

Bluesugar, not sure why you seem offended?

You stated that the 1970 GTO nose looked like a 1970 Firebird nose if you removed 2 headlights off the 70 GTO (which I agree with).

So I simply showed that the 1969 Firebird, with a painted bumper, is nearly identical to the 1970 GTO. Not sure why you seem so upset about that?

Take it easy, dude. We're all Pontiac fans here.

[The Boss]

Marker lights too - I'm seeing it Mike!

[Judge273]

Why are we comparing? These are iconic designs. Pontiac designers were at their peak in 69-72.

73 started to fade a bit....still very good stuff.

No regrets for me.

[muscle_collector]

a local guy I used to be friends with (no problems just drifted apart over the years) gave me a really good insight to the mindset of the 69 t/a's reception.

he said that he started his career right at the time they released the ta and being the new guy they made him drive one as his demonstrator. he said all the other sales guys laughed at him on regular basis (they were driving gto's and judges for the most part, the older guys would drive the big cars). he also said they were not easy cars to move because of the price. he mentioned that they did get a lot of attention but the option being a 3rd of the price of a firebird was just too much.
and for the rest of the story,several years later, he was able to buy his own pontiac dealership and the first thing he did was seek out a 69 ta (which he sold new) and buy it. he said I guess I got the last laugh on those guys.
and to my knowledge he still has it.