[CarlBraun]

Trying to locate the original XP code motor from my 1970 judge automatic. Others have found their long lost loves on this site so I thought I'd give it a try too...

My car was sold in south Texas and remained there for many years. The son of the deceased original owner says that his dad blew the motor in 1972 or so and the dealer replaced it with "another engine". I have a 1971 SR Ram Air IV block which will be built with 614 heads and 1970 RA IV intake. However it would be monumental if I could find the original block through the resources of all the knowledgeable Judge guys here in this forum.

Here is what I'm looking for...XP coded block from a June 1970 build car. VIN R157410

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Carl

[Brewster]

Welcome to PY Carl and good luck with your search. Tell us more about the car like color, options and possibly post a few pictures.. We all here like pictures. Also define Northwoods??
Cheers, Brew

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

You's guys must be neighbors, eh

[CarlBraun]

Originally Posted by Brewster

Welcome to PY Carl and good luck with your search. Tell us more about the car like color, options and possibly post a few pictures.. We all here like pictures. Also define Northwoods??
Cheers, Brew

Thanks for the warm welcome

the Northwoods means south of the Canadian border and north of Chicago. That's all I'll say for now.

I've purchased this car after having my 69 Judge stolen so, as you can imagine, I'm a little reserved on info with where I live.

1970 Ram Air IV Judge, Polar White, currently with black wing and hood scoops. Formula wheel, AM radio, Auto, PS, PB, Rally gauges, 3.90 axle, Ride/Handling, tinted glass ALL and white letter tires. sold in south Texas and is in great shape. front nose needs a bit of attention but otherwise very nice.

I have original paperwork from dealer where the original owner ordered the car and worked since he was 17 years old. He has since passed away. Working with his son to try and get some photos of the car when it was new...to see if it truly was a WT7 car. The son said his father blew the motor in 72 or 73 so there is a very healthy 70 WT motor in it now. That motor will be replaced with a 1971 SR Ram Air IV block, 614 heads and aluminum intake with crossover...original RA IV manifolds too.

I'm still waiting to verify whether the engine has the original alternator, distributor and carb with it.

Pics to follow soon

I'm looking for a set of nice JT rims for it as it has fatter Rally II wheels on it now.

Carl

[CarlBraun]

My first set of tasks will be to install yellow/red/black stripes and decals to replace the lime motif that the previous owner went with...replace the outer mirrors with correct pieces and paint the hood tach white.

[unruhjonny]

Welcome Carl!

I waited till others spoke;
SR blocks have been something of a curiousity to me, the fact that you have paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty it pure gold as far as I'm concerned.

I have read it said here something to the effect that before a block would get authorized for warranty replacement, that the zone rep would see to the block getting irreparably destroyed.
This would make, to me at least, the odds of finding your original block, next to nil... but I agree, there is no harm in looking!

Let me see if I can find a good quote for you...

In the mean time, this link might be of interest to you:
Wallace Racing's Lost/Found Engine or Transmission Search

['ol Pinion head]

Sweet!

Shame Darrel Yoder isn't still with us, I'm sure there's a good story behind that Judge. Darrel was a longtime Pontiac collector, there may be S Texas Pontiac buddy's of his that know the history of that car.

'70 XP's... Know of an original '70 XP shortblock that was in a '69 Judge for near 40 years. It is Oct '70 dated, also out of an Arlington build, but too early for your '70. The owner passed 2 years ago but really have little interest in what happened to his Judge. when i had dealings with him into the early 90's, he swore his '69 was a real RAIV 4spd Judge. As with other big whopper lies from him over the years, the truth came out.

[unruhjonny]

here's a good one:

Warranty on RAIV block

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

When I worked at the local Pontiac dealer in 1970 there was a RA IV block in the warranty pile that had a broken lifter bore in it. What I don't know is if the bore broke out with the hydraulic camshaft in it, or if it had the cam changed before the bore broke out of the block, and then they put the OEM cam and lifters back in to get it warrantied.

The guy that changed the fitted block out said it had the factory cam in it when it came in on the hook.

They had already put a sledge hammer through the water jacket, so it was completely scrap when I saw it. For anyone that isn't familiar with GM warranty, all warranty engines at that time were smacked with a sledge hammer while the factory rep was present to make certain the engine couldn't be used or sold after GM paid the warranty claim on it. In that case it was redundant with the lifter bore broken already.

Since seeing that lifter bore broken I have never seen another one broken, even though I used a solid roller cam in a few of my own engines without any bracing. ...

I don't want you to be too deterred, but I also want you to have a realistic level of enthusiasm.

That's a beautiful GTO!!

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Welcome Carl!

I waited till others spoke;
SR blocks have been something of a curiousity to me, the fact that you have paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty it pure gold as far as I'm concerned.

I have read it said here something to the effect that before a block would get authorized for warranty replacement, that the zone rep would see to the block getting irreparably destroyed.
This would make, to me at least, the odds of finding your original block, next to nil... but I agree, there is no harm in looking!

Let me see if I can find a good quote for you...

In the mean time, this link might be of interest to you:
Wallace Racing's Lost/Found Engine or Transmission Search

Not all original high perf coded blocks that were replaced under warranty with SR fitted blocks were destroyed. Quite a few of them made it out of dealerships & into service personel/racers' private stashes.

[unruhjonny]

oh, I don't doubt there were exceptions.

just trying to be realistic.

[CarlBraun]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Welcome Carl!

I waited till others spoke;
SR blocks have been something of a curiousity to me, the fact that you have paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty it pure gold as far as I'm concerned.

I have read it said here something to the effect that before a block would get authorized for warranty replacement, that the zone rep would see to the block getting irreparably destroyed.
This would make, to me at least, the odds of finding your original block, next to nil... but I agree, there is no harm in looking!

Let me see if I can find a good quote for you...

In the mean time, this link might be of interest to you:
Wallace Racing's Lost/Found Engine or Transmission Search

Johnny, sorry if I was unclear but I do NOT have any paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty...only the info I received from the owners son...verbally. I have reached out to Yoder's son as well who has not called me back yet...he's running a used car lot that looks like it my have a tunnel under the floor that leads to Juarez...if you know what I mean.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by CarlBraun

Johnny, sorry if I was unclear but I do NOT have any paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty...only the info I received from the owners son...verbally. I have reached out to Yoder's son as well who has not called me back yet...he's running a used car lot that looks like it my have a tunnel under the floor that leads to Juarez...if you know what I mean.

oh wow, my bad...
now that I'm looking back over the posts, I definitely don't see what I thought I saw.

I totally get where you're coming from though...
This might be a good read:

LINK

I have loved delving into the nitty gritty of the details on these cars - even though my car will NEVER be worth anything remotely like yours, I have started down a rabbit trail of my own on getting the car as close to 100% correct as possible.

I know a 1970 RAIV block was offered by a guy in BC last year(?);
He's since had a tragedy that had him liquidate and get out of the hobby, but before that all went down, I saved pictured of a stitched up 1970 RAIV block he had for sale:

(click on the images to enlarge them)

[6804gto]

Originally Posted by CarlBraun

My first set of tasks will be to install yellow/red/black stripes and decals to replace the lime motif that the previous owner went with...replace the outer mirrors with correct pieces and paint the hood tach white.

Looks like a nice Judge. Will look much better replacing the stripes like you plan.
Good luck with the search for ra4 block. This forum is a good place to get the word out.

[CarlBraun]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Sweet!

Shame Darrel Yoder isn't still with us, I'm sure there's a good story behind that Judge. Darrel was a longtime Pontiac collector, there may be S Texas Pontiac buddy's of his that know the history of that car.

'70 XP's... Know of an original '70 XP shortblock that was in a '69 Judge for near 40 years. It is Oct '70 dated, also out of an Arlington build, but too early for your '70. The owner passed 2 years ago but really have little interest in what happened to his Judge. when i had dealings with him into the early 90's, he swore his '69 was a real RAIV 4spd Judge. As with other big whopper lies from him over the years, the truth came out.

The original owner of this car wasn't Yoder but it was purchased by an employee of Yoder Pontiac...a Mexican guy that started at the dealer when he was 17...and RETIRED from the Yoder dealership later in life. He was also instrumental in developing the Tejas music scene that was popular with the Hispanic folks in south Texas. In fact, the popular Mexican singer Selena Quintanilla-Pérez was reported to have gotten her start with the record label he started.

I wont lose any sleep when it comes to finding the original block...in fact, when I purchased this car I was strongly considering putting in a McCarty Ram Air V engine. the truth be told, that may have been a more economical solution rather than going the route I'm going now with the RA IV parts $$$$$$$

[CarlBraun]

Johnny

I've read that link before...thanks for sending it...lots of great info there on SR blocks. I bought the 1971 SR Ram Air IV block 9799915 as I thought it would be the "correct" date code for an engine that would have blown in 1972 as the son has suggested. I've read other posts here on the PY forums that suggest that a proper engine swap would have the cars VIN stamped into the block by the Pontiac service tech that made the change. what are your thoughts on res-tamping an SR block with the correct VIN and XP code? I want the engine to be as correct as possible for this car without implying its an original numbers matching block but still stamping it the way a dealer would have done in 72 when performing a swap with an SR block. My initial thoughts would be to stamp the VIN next to the SR code and then stamping an XP into the normal location on the block.

comments?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Car really looks Great - and all the hard work is already done.
Gotta love it from that perspective !

I wouldn't do any further stamping on the block. imo
Very very few SR's have any additional information//data stamps on them.
I think that was very loose protocol.

You asked about Buildsheet location prospects in the other thread.
Since the gas tank is new, the springs of the seats and under carpet layment are next best bets.

However, i have very few Arlington samples at all.
o'Ph might have more info being a Texan and having parted out numerous cars.
I'm not sure if they were even always typically found on Arlington cars.
The lack of specimens i have on file makes me wonder ...

If i had a White 70 Judge - it would get WT7'ed - unless it had Blue or Green interior.
With the old myth about Arlington Only WT7 ,,, not many would dispute it.
Most would likely expect it to be WT7 .

[CarlBraun]

Pontiac experts

take a look at the engine shot of my car. note that I do NOT have this car in my possession until next week and I have only had a muscle car friend of mine look it over when it was on the west coast. He did verify the WT code block, PD automatic and XK rear but no specifics on carb, distributor or other misc items.

please comment on what intake is on this car. it appears aluminum with the Winters logo on the top and the secondary heat riser appears to be mounted correctly to a crossover...what do you see?

[AG]

I think the trans should be a PQ code?

[CarlBraun]

AG

According to the 1964-1970 GTO Restoration guide. No PQ automatic transmissions used in 1970...only 1969 for the Ram Air IV. The exception could be if it was an early 1970 car...???

Paul Zazarine and Chuck Roberts say that three flavors of M40 used in 1970 GTOs...PY for standard engines, PD for (both) Ram Air engines and PR for 455 engine equipped cars.

Here is another source I use...https://www.andysautosport.com/learn...transmissions/

Comments from the peanut gallery?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by CarlBraun

... it appears aluminum with the Winters logo on the top and the secondary heat riser appears to be mounted correctly to a crossover...what do you see?

At minimum its a 2-piece factory aluminum (winters logo)
Each year had a different part number//casting number from 69-72
You'll have to wait and see it defacto