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Old 12-06-2019, 10:58 AM
promptcritical promptcritical is offline
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Default Arizona emissions testing

1967 and newer? What are they looking for in these old cars that had no cats and ran on leaded gasoline? Anybody here living in the Phoenix area that has some insight into what’s involved with emissions testing an old car? Thanks.

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Old 12-06-2019, 11:54 AM
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What's odd is Arizona hasn't followed California as far as the years tested. California started letting up on the years they go back. They start somewhere in the 70's now. Yet Arizona is still stuck at 1967. I haven't figured that out yet.

I had to run my 70 Formula through California emissions testing about 30 years ago. They simply put it on the sniffer and unplugged the vacuum advance to knock the hydrocarbons down and it passed with flying colors. Then put a sticker on the inner fender that the vacuum advance was to stay unplugged, for those unexpected road side inspections California was having at that time. What erked me was that I didn't live in California and was taking the car out of state anyway. Money making scheme is all that was.

Cars from the late 60's and early 70's all they can really look for is a PCV valve and the charcoal canister. They didn't have anything else until about 74 when the EGR was introduced.

Years back I knew guys that were registering there cars in Maricopa county as classic vehicles and they were exempt from testing. I run those tags up here in Yavapai even though we don't test here. It's an extra $20 a year for those tags if I remember right. However I'm not sure they still exempt a car from testing anymore. Something you would have to look into. Other guys were registering their cars in a different county. I knew a club of 4th gen owners I hung with occasionally. Radical cams, stroker engines, no cats, no way they would even pass a visual let alone a sniffer, yet they lived in Maricopa and had the cars licensed. At the time they were too new to be registered as classics. I forget how those guys were getting around it.


Last edited by Formulajones; 12-06-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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Good question. A 67 wouldn't even have a PCV valve or a charcoal vapor canister, everything being open to the atmosphere. EGR started in 73. Seems to me that if it wasn't burning oil and smoking, it'd pass 1967 standards.

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Old 12-06-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Grand73Am View Post
Good question. A 67 wouldn't even have a PCV valve ...
wait, what?

I thought that the PCV was in the pan under the intake?

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Old 12-06-2019, 12:24 PM
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Yeah some had PCV in 67. Chevrolet used them inline connected to the oil fill tube on sbc's when they ran sealed up valve covers. Early on they simply used a crank case dump tube. Speaking of which, boy they sure would hate to see that setup roll through there, LOL

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Old 12-06-2019, 12:35 PM
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If the car has collector car insurance which somehow limits usage to non-daily driving/commuting and is registered as a collector car, then it’s exempt from emissions testing. I have a 67, 68, and 70 registered this way. I use AZ year of manufacture plates rather than collector car plates.

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Old 12-06-2019, 12:38 PM
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Ah there ya go, thanks Gator. I knew it was something like that.

And yes forgot to mention that, you can use "year of" plates in place of the collector plate if you wish.

Something we used to do in Ohio but when we moved to Arizona, I didn't feel like going through all the trouble again of finding AZ plates that I liked for the cars.

Edit: However, not to steer this off target, but if you want to be sneaky, there is a place in Florida that is restamping metal plates for any state, to say anything you want, painted the correct colors, for any year car etc....You can't tell them from originals when done other than they look brand new. Dad has used this service before and actually registered the plates without any issues. So if you're looking for something specific, send him a PM, he still has their contact information.


Last edited by Formulajones; 12-06-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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There are folks on this board from this area who daily drive their old Pontiacs, so if you’re not interested in going the collector car route, then perhaps you can reach out for info regarding the emissions testing process and what they do to make it through...Mister Pontiac (Todd Mitten) is someone who comes to mind.

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Old 12-06-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
wait, what?

I thought that the PCV was in the pan under the intake?
I have looked at a LOT of Pontiac Engines over the years and all had PCV valves starting in 1964 in the Valley Pan.

The 455 SD engine with the PCV in an "alternate location" being the exception I believe. No knowledge on what Chevrolet did with their engines. 1964, not 1967, for some of the first PCV Valves on Pontiac & GM Engines.

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Old 12-06-2019, 01:36 PM
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I'm not in the AZ so grain of salt, but it's my understanding that you can't be forced to add emissions equipment or pass emissions requirements of later year vehicles than your car was designed around. States would need to provide some method of achieving results based on the model year of your vehicle and the emissions standards of that time.

In Colorado this is done through the collector/historic vehicle license plate. If the vehicle is 25 years or older you can run this plate and this forces the emissions standard for your model year vehicle. As an example, my 1969 Firebird received no emissions testing, as it didn't exist and I have full use of the vehicle without restriction. Lets say I had a 76 bird though and didn't want to get it emissions tested. I could do that with the historic plate, but I would be limited to X amount of miles per year.

My point here is I would call the DMV or Country Clerk, whoever does plates and monitors emissions and get it straight from the horses mouth. Ex post facto laws are still constitutionally illegal in this country, so most municipalities have some sort of mechanism for these older cars.

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Old 12-06-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
wait, what?

I thought that the PCV was in the pan under the intake?
Sorry, I was thinking of Chevrolets. On the 67 Chevys, there was a can under the intake which connected to an exterior road draft tube, which drew the fumes out from under the car. I don't know what 67 Pontiacs did.

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Old 12-06-2019, 04:50 PM
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CA started the smog systems in 1966. Some 1966 and 67 "49" state vehicles had an "AIR" (smog pump. In 1968 CA and Federal emissions standards were the same and cars needed to have the "AIR" system (smog pump).

1967 SBC smog pump:



Diagram of 1968 AIR system:



Catalytic converters came much later, but late 60's vehicles did have smog systems.

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Old 12-06-2019, 05:42 PM
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CA started the smog systems in 1966. Some 1966 and 67 "49" state vehicles had an "AIR" (smog pump. In 1968 CA and Federal emissions standards were the same and cars needed to have the "AIR" system (smog pump).

1967 SBC smog pump:



Diagram of 1968 AIR system:



Catalytic converters came much later, but late 60's vehicles did have smog systems.
And to make it even more confusing on the subject of SBC smog pumps, only the 4 speed cars got them on the first gen F-body sbc, the automatics didn't have them. While the BBC had them on both auto and manual.

Another one that makes their head spin is my 79 454 1 ton pickup truck. Vehicles at that time over a certain gross vehicle weight didn't have catalytic converters. It also still had the large gas tank filler neck for leaded fuel, and the gas gauge didn't say "unleaded fuel" only. Try to explain that at the smog station to people that weren't even born yet when that truck was built, lol.

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Old 12-06-2019, 06:04 PM
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I've been a CA smog tech since 1981. In CA, PCV started in 1961....almosst 60 years ago. AIR injection (smog pump) started in 1966. Charcoal canister/evap and closed systems started in 1970. The last time I had to smog my '67 GTO was back in 1996. It didn't require the AIR system because it was and is a federal car and never had it. Just PCV and closed crankcase vent. The test was for HC and CO only. After '96, the model year range moved from '66-up to '76-up....and there is talk of moving it up further to '83 and up soon. What happened in CA is that the standards kept getting TIGHTER as the cars got older. Standards for my '67 at one time were 500PPM HC and 4% CO......by 1996, they were 200PPM HC and 2% CO maximum. Totally backwards......expecting a car to run cleaner as it gets older. I can't imagine the logic of doing tailpipe testing on 53 year old cars these days.....the percentage of them is almost nil, and what few there are do not contribute any measurable pollution in the big scheme of things. In CA, cars still IN the program must retain all their smog equipment and must pass a variety of tailpipe tests, depending on the county. The percentage of '76 and earlier cars here on the road is higher than a lot of states due to no rust, but has to make up less than 1% of the motor fleet currently on the roads. In AZ, a 1967 model car would require it's born-with smog equipment. And it would need to be functional. In CA, many, many older cars get emissons waivers so they can get registered, simply because NOBODY is reproducing AIR pumps and gulp valves and AIR rails for 50 year old cars. I think this is a huge can of worms AZ is opening up, personally. I suspect too many Californians moved in and skewed the laws. Shame.

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Old 12-06-2019, 06:29 PM
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An often overlooked emission control is the thermac? flaps in the air cleaner snorkel along with carb icing the duct that goes from snorkel down to the exhaust manifold aids in a quicker warmup less emissions

Glad I moved out of CA. Less overall B/S

.

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Old 12-09-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by geeteeohguy View Post
I've been a CA smog tech since 1981. In CA, PCV started in 1961....almosst 60 years ago. AIR injection (smog pump) started in 1966. Charcoal canister/evap and closed systems started in 1970. The last time I had to smog my '67 GTO was back in 1996. It didn't require the AIR system because it was and is a federal car and never had it. Just PCV and closed crankcase vent. The test was for HC and CO only. After '96, the model year range moved from '66-up to '76-up....and there is talk of moving it up further to '83 and up soon. What happened in CA is that the standards kept getting TIGHTER as the cars got older. Standards for my '67 at one time were 500PPM HC and 4% CO......by 1996, they were 200PPM HC and 2% CO maximum. Totally backwards......expecting a car to run cleaner as it gets older. I can't imagine the logic of doing tailpipe testing on 53 year old cars these days.....the percentage of them is almost nil, and what few there are do not contribute any measurable pollution in the big scheme of things. In CA, cars still IN the program must retain all their smog equipment and must pass a variety of tailpipe tests, depending on the county. The percentage of '76 and earlier cars here on the road is higher than a lot of states due to no rust, but has to make up less than 1% of the motor fleet currently on the roads. In AZ, a 1967 model car would require it's born-with smog equipment. And it would need to be functional. In CA, many, many older cars get emissons waivers so they can get registered, simply because NOBODY is reproducing AIR pumps and gulp valves and AIR rails for 50 year old cars. I think this is a huge can of worms AZ is opening up, personally. I suspect too many Californians moved in and skewed the laws. Shame.
I'd like to think AZ may come around and change the year requirements eventually. Since so many register these cars as classics and bypass the testing, I don't see them making money on much of anything below 1989 anyway.
Currently, they only test in two counties anyway, Maricopa and Pima. Which is basically Phoenix and Tucson.
Go north of town about 20 miles and you're out of Maricopa, we have no testing up here of any kind. Nothing in Flagstaff, Prescott, Kingman, Lake Havasu, and dozens of other towns throughout central and Northern Arizona where millions of people are living.

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Old 12-09-2019, 12:50 PM
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It was like that for many years in Michigan. Detroit and the Suburbs, Flint Michigan, and Grand Rapids, Michigan being the locations where the Emissions Testing was performed.
These are the 3 largest cities as far as vehicles on the road at a given time in Michigan.

No one cared about a small community like Caseville, Michigan.

We have not had required Emissions Inspections for many years now.
EPA does have Traveling Inspection Stations where could shove a probe up a vehicles tailpipe.

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Old 12-09-2019, 01:52 PM
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In Illinois, cars built 1996 and earlier are exempt. Others just require periodic computer code checks...no check engine codes, no problem. They used to do a floor dyno/sniffer test but with AWD, etc. they gave up on that.

I had a 63 Dodge Dart Slant Six and it had a PCV. My wife had a '65 Mustang 289 with a road draft tube. Seems those years were a crap shoot for PCV usage. I put a PCV on the wife's Mustang...couldn't stand the smell of the tube.

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Old 12-09-2019, 02:22 PM
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In Illinois, cars built 1996 and earlier are exempt. George
Yep, Ohio was like that, and what I liked about Ohio's program is that once a car reaches 25 years old it's exempt, and it's a rolling year deal. Every year the next model year becomes exempt. To me this makes the most sense.

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Old 12-09-2019, 03:24 PM
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In Texas anything 25 years and older does not need anything other than a visual safety inspection for full license. "Antique" plates do not have to have a safety inspection but limited driving.

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