[PMD1969]

I read through several of the older ZDDP threads and then decided to take a fresh look at what is available today.

Throughout most of those threads I ran into two areas of concern for the Valvoline VR-1 20w50 that I use. Oil weight is too thick and there are none or not enough rust and corrosion inhibitors.

Then I finally found this at Lucas for their Hot Rod 10w40 packaged oil:

Available in convenient 5 quart bottles, the formulation is perfect for the Hot Rod and Classic Car crowd with an increased zinc value of 2100 PPM. Because many of these very special machines often spend long periods off the roads, a number of the components of the additive package used in Lucas' Marine oils to provide rust and corrosion protection have been included in its unique formula.

At $36 per 5qt jug I can order it at Summit or others with free shipping. Seems like this and a high quality filter would be best for my factory never been apart Pontiac 70k engine? Should I add some ZDDP to it or leave it be?

http://lucasoil.com/products/hot-rod...w-40-motor-oil

If you have a better and more cost effective way of getting this done please let me know.

Thoughts?

[grivera]

Not a bad price. At 2100 ppm zinc I don't see why you'd have to add any more.

[78w72]

oil threads are a big can of worms, im sure you know if youve read previous ones... but i will try to answer your questions based on my experience & research ive done on oil...

#1- if the engine is stock, you do not need huge amounts of zddp, 2100ppm for the lucas is more than enough. the good oils before they started reducing it were only at about 1300-1500ppm, current oils are at 800 but have other modern additives like moly that reduce the need for tons of zddp. so you would not need to add more for a specialty oil like lucas or vr-1 etc.

the stock & broken in cam & springs would be fine with a quality off the shelf oil IMO. or if you want to feel better go with a good diesel oil, they are all spec'd for gas engines & do have higher amounts of zddp than normal car oils. millions of cars are on the road with flat tappet cams doing fine on regular modern oils. i use regular valvoline or any other name brand 10/30 or 10/40 in 2 of my cars with stock engines, actually use walmarts supertech in the daily driver, & 15/40 delo-400 in the car with a mild comp cam, it only runs in the warmer weather.

the above is much more cost effective, less than half the price of specialty oils that your stock engine just doesnt need. most "street" cams dont need specialty oil for normal use either. for break in, special good oil & the right additive is a must. & bigger cams with heavy springs or raced motors are what need the expensive oil.

valvoline makes a goood diesel oil too, check walmart for a good selection & usually best prices.

[AdamIsAdam]

Don't forget about things like pour and flow rates at various temps. The VR-1 20x-50 flows at about 0° as I recall. It's on their web site plus other sources.

I run it all year. Car is garaged and driven wherever the roads allow, including last week on a relatively warm January day. Oil pressure was good right away. I like that the carb bowl dries up so it takes some cranking to fill it, all the while oil pressure is building.

[JSPONT]

Yes the VR-1 is a race oil and has no detergents in it. I know a lot of guys been running it for years in there street cars with no problems. I run it in my turbo car but I change the oil way more than most. The oil cools the turbo so it breaks down faster. Since I change it so much I do not worry about the non detergent. If it was an everyday car I would use a detergent oil.

[PMD1969]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Yes the VR-1 is a race oil and has no detergents in it. I know a lot of guys been running it for years in there street cars with no problems. I run it in my turbo car but I change the oil way more than most. The oil cools the turbo so it breaks down faster. Since I change it so much I do not worry about the non detergent. If it was an everyday car I would use a detergent oil.

We our (sort of) in the same boat. Mine is a Sprint OHC so I am more worried about the camshaft lobes and followers than most. But I too change the oil religiously at minimum once per year. I rarely drive the vehicle and have gone (like this year) the entire year without taking it out of the garage.

I am still a bit concerned about not having certain additives in the oil but I may be over doing it. I do plan on getting it out on the road much more than I have and putting on enough miles where racing oil may not do.

I'll keep looking

[gtofreek]

Too much zinc is not good either. The more ZDDP in the oil, the higher the oil temps will run. It builds heat. You shouldn't run more than you need. A stock street engine wouldn't need more than 1200 PPM, IMO. I personally prefer Brad Penn racing oil. Penn Grade 1 is it's new name. It has great qualities that you just don't see in many oils. It clings to, and stays on parts very well. You can't hardly burn the stuff. I can squirt it on a dull red hot oil gallery plug, and it won't catch on fire. It can stand extreme operating conditions, and heat. It doesn't break down as fast as other oils. It's just awesome oil.

[Grand73Am]

Originally Posted by PMD1969

We our (sort of) in the same boat. Mine is a Sprint OHC so I am more worried about the camshaft lobes and followers than most. But I too change the oil religiously at minimum once per year. I rarely drive the vehicle and have gone (like this year) the entire year without taking it out of the garage.

I am still a bit concerned about not having certain additives in the oil but I may be over doing it. I do plan on getting it out on the road much more than I have and putting on enough miles where racing oil may not do.

I'll keep looking

The Valvoline website states that VR-1 is compatible with street passenger vehicles. I contacted them once, and they said it's fine for any car. They said to just change your oil at your normal oil change intervals. I'm sure it has all the ingredients necessary for safe use in your car. I know that most parts stores only stock 20w50 on the shelf, but it is available in 10w30, and you can get it if you ask for it.

[rohrt]

A few things that stood out to me during my research on the subject

*There have been a number of oils that have come out with their own proprietary blend to replace the zddp. They keep it a very tightly held secret and its difficult to know if it will work for a flat tappet cam.

*Thus most of us including me go back to oils that have the zinc phosphate. I still use the Rotella T diesel oil, however I don't know it I would endorse it.

*The zddp was reduced because it reduces the effect of the catalytic converter.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Don't forget about things like pour and flow rates at various temps. The VR-1 20x-50 flows at about 0° as I recall. It's on their web site plus other sources.

I run it all year. Car is garaged and driven wherever the roads allow, including last week on a relatively warm January day. Oil pressure was good right away. I like that the carb bowl dries up so it takes some cranking to fill it, all the while oil pressure is building.

Here is a chart that backs up what Adam is saying. First column is 20w-50 oils and their pour ratings. Notice how not all 20w-50 oils are the same.

http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansy...coil/id17.html

[AdamIsAdam]

Interesting. So if % ash is most important, then Amsoil wins hands down over everyone with specs listed. I'd like to know more about that.

After that, most everything here seems decent, depending on application. For me, the VR1 looks ok for my use. I did just send an email to Valvoline asking about the additives for my 1,500 mile per year, 1x oil change per year, flat tappet hi-po engine. I'll report back what they say.

For me this oil seems to leak the least out of my rear main seal. I tried a fully synthetic (maybe Mobil 1 or Amsoil, I forget) and it definetely started leaking more. I know, I know, that's not supposed to be the case, but it was.

So now I'm just paranoid about additives, or the lack thereof.

Question: if I'm only doing 1,500 miles/year, without track time, is it best to change the oil before or after the winter. I do drive it year round, but only rarely during the winter. And always driven for at least 10-20 miles to really warm things up. No driveway idling queen here.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Question: if I'm only doing 1,500 miles/year, without track time, is it best to change the oil before or after the winter. I do drive it year round, but only rarely during the winter. And always driven for at least 10-20 miles to really warm things up. No driveway idling queen here.

always better to change at the end of the season... flushes out all the crap & acids etc that built up over the year. better to have it sit over the winter with clean oil... then come spring its ready to go.

[AdamIsAdam]

I just got an email back from Valvoline already! That's good customer service from an on line form. here is their reply to my question:

Adam, thank you for contacting Valvoline Product Support

In reference to your question, the VR1 Racing oil is what we would recommend for your engine. It is ok for use on street cars, and oil changes should not go over 3,000 miles. It has plenty of ZDDP @ 1400 PPM zinc and 1300 PPM Phosphorus.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us via phone at 800 TEAM VAL or by email at productsupport@valvoline.com for assistance.

Thank you and have a great day.

Valvoline Product Support

I've got a case of the stuff in the garage that I guess I'll be putting in before spring.

[Don 79 TA]

any decent oil should suffice just fine
i dont pay much attention to the zddp rating
Royal Purple does not list a high count, but as others mentioned some use other proprietary "ingredients"
as for pour in stuff, with a decent oil, you are probably better off not putting it in
Companies like Driven and RP will tell you that you can run into additive clash which can do more harm

as for which one is better, alot is also personal choice, you will hear good and bad on just about every brand and weight

RP told me their HPS oil is fine for very aggressive cam profiles (flat or roller)
XPR has slightly more zddp protection, however i heard it comes from a higher base stock compared to HPS, but.... RP will neither deny nor confirm that (shoot.. sounds like how i have to respond to things at work)

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Here is a chart that backs up what Adam is saying. First column is 20w-50 oils and their pour ratings. Notice how not all 20w-50 oils are the same.

http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansy...coil/id17.html

From your link:

Please take note that at the time of this compilation the only two oils that really match up with AMSOIL (according the figures below) are Mobil 1 and Red Line. These are both exceptional oils, but you will find that in most viscosity grades AMSOIL's specs (if taken as a whole) come out better than both of them.

I don't know when that oil comparison was done, but evidently whoever wrote it didn't bother doing much research.

There is no Zinc #'s posted for Mobil 1 15W50 (which is what I run) despite the fact that I know Mobil 1 has had the information available for years.



Mobil recommends their 15W50 for flat tappet camshaft applications and racing applications. It has an excellent pour point, flash point and viscosity ratings per the Amzoil supplied chart. And it has 1300 ppm Zinc and 1200 ppm Phosphorous.

I am not saying that Mobil 1 is the best oil or that Amzoil is crap.

Simply saying that this "list" is of questionable value.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Rocket house car wins with VR-1!

[lust4speed]

For what it's worth:

Apparently there is good Valvoline and mediocre Valvoline. California has banned the sale of the VR1 in the black bottle, but we can still get the same named oil in the silver bottle. California limits the amount of zinc and phosphorous in oils sold that might end up in street vehicles, and if we can buy it here, it's probably no where near what it once was. What color is YOUR bottle?

Also for what it's worth, we changed to the Lucas Hot Rod Oil for break-in and recommend it for future oil changes. Our preferred machine shop contracts for a lot of race teams, and has been selling it to a lot of circle track and desert racers. Don't know whether they are on to something, or if it is simply the latest craze.

[AdamIsAdam]

The black bottle seems to be synthetic and the grey is dino.

But can't you order it on Amazon regardless? That's how I get mine at lowest prices.

[78w72]

the black bottle also says "for race vehicles" & nothing about passenger cars... but the grey bottle says "ok for passenger cars too". i recall reading at one time that the black bottle is the one without the detergents or additives needed for a street car but the grey bottle has them & is ok for street use.

the website also says the black bottles oil is a "saphire blue color", so it must be a different blend & probably has much higher zddp amounts that california doesnt like.

obviously its good oil & has its purpose... but i still say its overkill for a stock engine or mild cams & springs.

[694.1]

"I rarely drive the vehicle and have gone (like this year) the entire year without taking it out of the garage."'

STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD. Drive your car!

(Your car speaking)