[Dragncar]

If you ran a jumper wire from the battery to the S terminal with good cable to the starter and nothing happened, you have a bad solenoid. I used to take them apart and clean the contacts, have you tried that ?
A 12V solenoid is a simple device with a coil. If all the contacts are good and you have the right voltage and amps and its jumped and nothing happens, you have a bad coil/solenoid.
You might want to run a ground jumper wire to the starters frame, that would cover it all.
I cured a LOT of starter problems by running a Fold solenoid on the fender well and one big fat wire to the starter with a jumper wire down there between the big lug on the starter itself and the purple/start terminal on the solenoid.
If you do that the Ford starter takes the initial hit on its contacts a millisecond before the big contacts on the starter solenoid on the starter itself. So, its contacts last a super long time and there is no purple wire going to the starter to get cooked. That cooked purple wire causes a lot of problems.
Just protect the one big cable going down to the starter.
Bet if you do the Ford solenoid deal your problems will be over.
Some people run a diode to prevent a back feeding of current. I have not had a issue, I think it has something to do with the difference between a permanent magnet starter and a electro magnet starter.
I will ask the electric wiz kid that question at work tomorrow.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If you ran a jumper wire from the battery to the S terminal with good cable to the starter and nothing happened, you have a bad solenoid. I used to take them apart and clean the contacts, have you tried that ?
A 12V solenoid is a simple device with a coil. If all the contacts are good and you have the right voltage and amps and its jumped and nothing happens, you have a bad coil/solenoid.
You might want to run a ground jumper wire to the starters frame, that would cover it all.
.......
I will ask the electric wiz kid that question at work tomorrow.

Sorry to hear this. I'm sure it is frustrating.

Since you tried 2 solenoids, a poor ground on the starter motor seems the only thing left. How that could happen I have no clue.

I'm rooting for the wiz kid!

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If you ran a jumper wire from the battery to the S terminal with good cable to the starter and nothing happened, you have a bad solenoid. I used to take them apart and clean the contacts, have you tried that ?
A 12V solenoid is a simple device with a coil. If all the contacts are good and you have the right voltage and amps and its jumped and nothing happens, you have a bad coil/solenoid.
You might want to run a ground jumper wire to the starters frame, that would cover it all.
I cured a LOT of starter problems by running a Fold solenoid on the fender well and one big fat wire to the starter with a jumper wire down there between the big lug on the starter itself and the purple/start terminal on the solenoid.
If you do that the Ford starter takes the initial hit on its contacts a millisecond before the big contacts on the starter solenoid on the starter itself. So, its contacts last a super long time and there is no purple wire going to the starter to get cooked. That cooked purple wire causes a lot of problems.
Just protect the one big cable going down to the starter.
Bet if you do the Ford solenoid deal your problems will be over.
Some people run a diode to prevent a back feeding of current. I have not had a issue, I think it has something to do with the difference between a permanent magnet starter and a electro magnet starter.
I will ask the electric wiz kid that question at work tomorrow.

I have not tried cleaning the contacts. I can try that tomorrow.

Is it possible that the solenoid is bad even though the starter works fine when I bench tested it?

I did try two solenoids; I guess it's possible they're both bad, but one is brand new and the other was working a few days ago.

Thanks,

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Also, how can I check to see if the purple wire is working? Can I hook the starter up (without bolting it to the engine) and have someone bump the key while I'm holding a test light to the S terminal?

And any ideas on how to confirm whether it could be the neutral safety switch? This car has a floor shift automatic trans; I'm guessing its on the shifter mechanism, right?

Thanks

[Bill Hanlon]

Make sure the transmission is in park or neutral, the parking brake is set and the key is off. Now make sure again.

Use a screwdriver to jump the S terminal to the large terminal on the solenoid that the battery cable connects to.

If the engine cranks over (it may even start until you remove the screwdriver) the problem is in the circuit from the ignition switch start position through the safety switch on the shift linkage to the S terminal.

If the engine doesn't crank over, but you can hear the solenoid pull in and stay pulled in the problem is in the starter or the solenoid.

If the engine doesn't crank, but you can hear the solenoid clicking many times, the problem is either at the battery, the battery cables or bad connections on either end of the battery cables.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Make sure the transmission is in park or neutral, the parking brake is set and the key is off. Now make sure again.

Use a screwdriver to jump the S terminal to the large terminal on the solenoid that the battery cable connects to.

If the engine cranks over (it may even start until you remove the screwdriver) the problem is in the circuit from the ignition switch start position through the safety switch on the shift linkage to the S terminal.

If the engine doesn't crank over, but you can hear the solenoid pull in and stay pulled in the problem is in the starter or the solenoid.

If the engine doesn't crank, but you can hear the solenoid clicking many times, the problem is either at the battery, the battery cables or bad connections on either end of the battery cables.

I can't get a screwdriver in there with the starter installed (headers in the way) but I can hook up the three cables/wires to the starter and try it that way. It doesn't need to be bolted to the engine, does it?

Thanks

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Also, how can I check to see if the purple wire is working? Can I hook the starter up (without bolting it to the engine) and have someone bump the key while I'm holding a test light to the S terminal?

And any ideas on how to confirm whether it could be the neutral safety switch? This car has a floor shift automatic trans; I'm guessing its on the shifter mechanism, right?

Thanks

You check the purple wire just like you said. If it gets hot when you turn the key I bet its your neutral safety switch.
If you bench tested your starter/solenoid combo and it turns over and the Bendix kicks out the starter drive there is only so many things that can be wrong with it.
Bad ground, purple wire is getting no power due to bad ignition switch or that N/S switch.
If its a N/O switch, normally open and makes contact when in park or neutral you could jump that switch.
But then it starts in any gear.
Bet its you N/S switch or its connections.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Ignition switch contacts have corrosion from sitting unused. Clean up the contacts with contact cleaner and working the key back and forth.

[Goatracer1]

Time to get a second set of hands to help you. Take your voltmeter and with someone working the key work your way backwards from the starter until you find where you are losing your voltage. If all else fails you can always bypass some of the interior parts using either a starter relay (Mopar ones work well) or a Ford type solenoid.

[george kujanski]

I assume you had the starter mounted or had the starter grounded when trying the jumper wire from battery to the "S"S terminal, right?

George

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

I assume you had the starter mounted or had the starter grounded when trying the jumper wire from battery to the "S"S terminal, right?

George

George - Please don't assume anything when it comes to me and electrical work! I did not have the starter mounted or grounded.

I can try again, but with a jumper cable going from the starter body to the frame.

Thanks!

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

George - Please don't assume anything when it comes to me and electrical work! I did not have the starter mounted or grounded.

I can try again, but with a jumper cable going from the starter body to the frame.

Thanks!

Ahhh!!!

Yes, you will likely have a different outcome and will get it figured out quickly!

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Shiny

Ahhh!!!

Yes, you will likely have a different outcome and will get it figured out quickly!

We have some progress, I think!

I just connected a jumper cable to the negative terminal and the starter (starter not installed; it's wired up but sitting in the saddle of my floor jack). Tried to start. Nothing.

Then I connected a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the battery to the S terminal on the solenoid. Contact! It's spinning over.

So, that narrows it down, right? The starter and solenoid are good (and the grounds, too?) but I need to find out why the purple wire isn't getting power to the battery with the key.

I think my possible issues are:

1. Key switch.

2. Neutral safety switch.

3. A break/loose connection in the purple wire somewhere.

Thoughts?

[Shiny]

Woo hoo!

Yes, I think you got it.

The purple wire does carry significant current so every connection is an opportunity to drop voltage if the contact resistance is high. The fact that you heard "clicking" says you don't have a complete "open", which makes it more tricky to isolate.

Goatracer1 lays out the "analytical" approach. The other end of the spectrum is to replace everything.

Without a voltmeter, you could use a jumper wire (12 gauge would not be too small), attach one end to your S terminal solidly, and start walking backwards to the starter switch until you can isolate the weak connection.

Do you have a wiring diagram that shows all the connections between the battery and the S terminal?

[Greg Reid]

And don't forget what I was telling you about the purple wire in the first place, it gets baked over the years and will become a resistor. A volt meter would be more useful than a trouble light because even at low voltage it will light that bulb but the voltage may be only five or six volts when you need at least 10 or so applied by the purple wire to the S terminal.
Basically, I snipped my purple wire about 4 inches from the firewall under the hood and spliced in a new wire. I even made it pluggable because at the time I wasn't 100% sure if it was going to hold up. Now I have a place where I can unplug it and jumper it to the battery if I ever need to.
I even made a jumper with a push button so that I can bump the engine while adjusting valves and that kind of stuff.

[george kujanski]

Just for information....the starter spinning is a good sign, however keep in mind the situation is different when it's cranking the engine, in the following way: Unloaded, the starter motor draws a lot less current than when cranking the engine.

Assume the purple wire works. Once the bendix drive pulls in, the solenoid internals connect the battery wire to the starter motor, and the starter starts to draw, say 400 amps. if there is a bad connection in the battery-to-starter, or a weak battery, the poor connection cannot sustain 400 amps and the voltage to the starter drops to a low value. The lower voltage causes the solenoid to drop out, the voltage rises, and the cycle repeats. Again this most likely happens with a weak battery or poor battery connections. Several hundred amps will show a weak spot if it exists.

George

[Shiny]

George - I understood the intact solenoid wiring in the car did not activate the starter, yet a single-wire jumper from battery to S terminal did... Doesn't this sound like a high resistance in the "purple wire/NSS/ignition switch" circuit?

As to the ground, you clamped a physical cable between the starter and the frame when you compared the car wiring to your jumper, correct? And the positive cable was still connected between starter and battery, correct?

To George's point, spinning without a load will not draw as much current so you could still have a bad motor or bad contacts inside the solenoid but seems you can now bolt the starter back on and use a jumper to the solenoid to find out...

You already replaced the solenoid, correct? You might want to repeat the "old vs new" solenoid test with your now "known good" ground but if your recent success was with a new solenoid, I'm not sure it's worth going back to check out your old one..

[BB70]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Also, how can I check to see if the purple wire is working? Can I hook the starter up (without bolting it to the engine) and have someone bump the key while I'm holding a test light to the S terminal?

And any ideas on how to confirm whether it could be the neutral safety switch? This car has a floor shift automatic trans; I'm guessing its on the shifter mechanism, right?

Thanks

Instead of a test light, get a fog light bulb and use jumper wires, one to the purple wire, one to a good ground. A fog light bulb will work the circuit, nice blinding light is what you want. You can even make the jumper wires long and put it on the cowl so you can see it from the seat. To test the neutral switch unhook it and jumper wire the wire connector and turn the key, check your light. Good jumper wires are your friend.

[george kujanski]

Shiny: I am unclear if bulletpruf tried the purple wire when the starter was unbolted from the car and grounded externally. In any case, the heavier load of a fog lite should confirm if the purple circuit is good.

George

[bulletpruf]

My responses below in ALL CAPS

Originally Posted by Shiny

George - I understood the intact solenoid wiring in the car did not activate the starter, yet a single-wire jumper from battery to S terminal did... Doesn't this sound like a high resistance in the "purple wire/NSS/ignition switch" circuit?

As to the ground, you clamped a physical cable between the starter and the frame when you compared the car wiring to your jumper, correct? YES, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY THE STARTER TO THE NEGATIVE TERMINAL ON THE BATTERY. THE STARTER WAS WIRED BUT NOT INSTALLED; IT WAS SITTING ON THE SADDLE OF MY FLOOR JACK.

And the positive cable was still connected between starter and battery, correct?

YES.

To George's point, spinning without a load will not draw as much current so you could still have a bad motor or bad contacts inside the solenoid but seems you can now bolt the starter back on and use a jumper to the solenoid to find out...

GOTCHA. WILL DO.

You already replaced the solenoid, correct? YES.

You might want to repeat the "old vs new" solenoid test with your now "known good" ground but if your recent success was with a new solenoid, I'm not sure it's worth going back to check out your old one..

MY RECENT TRY WAS WITH THE ORIGINAL SOLENOID. I HAVEN'T HAD A SUCCESSFUL TEST WITH THE NEW ONE YET.