[johnta1]

Did someone have 07-493 listed as Jim Causley Pontiac?

Mike, what do you show for Priehs Sales Pontiac?
Or John Rummel Pontiac?

Need to do some more corrections probably.

Also do you have Causley as dealer number 099?
This had the address: 17677 Mack Ave Detroit

What was the actual address of the place the pics were taken at?



Still after all these years, no full dealership codes.

[MikeNoun]

John, I'm sorry, I don't have anything for Priehs Pontiac.

I update my spreadsheet almost daily as I find new invoices from various sources. I also add new codes, correct addresses, etc. from invoices and build sheets that people send me to create a window sticker. I've added a few hundred, but there's still a lot of gaps. Sadly, PHS won't even share dealer names anymore. So if you paid $65 for a crappy, barely readable copy of a 1967 Billing History Card, they want $50 to disclose the name of a dealership. For someone who dumpster-dove those invoices decades ago, it's made them millions of dollars, and they have Pontiac fans over a barrel.

Jim Causley had two codes, the 07-099 was 17677 Mack Ave in Detroit, and 07-100 was 38111 Gratiot Ave in Mt. Clemens.

I've run across dozens and dozens of examples where a dealer had two codes, numerically next to each other, usually with the same address. When the addresses are different, most likely the dealership moved at some point. When I update my spreadsheet, I always include the year and model of the car where I obtained the info. That helps to determine when the move occurred.

But many examples show a dealer with two codes, one having the street address, the other with a P.O. Box. This may have been something to do with billing. Perhaps they used one address for financed cars, the other for purchased cars, I'm not sure.

There's also examples of a dealer address being shared by multiple dealers, and I believe those addresses are for a Zone lot.

Mike

[Zimtok]

Mike,
Do you have any info on a dealer code 19611?

I've checked before on some website but it didn't show this number on the list.


.

[John V.]

Mike, I crossed up 07-493 using John W's (johnta1) decoder.

And didn't go back to see you had already id'd that one as Stan Long.

John, I see you added the Stan Long identification. Wondering if you shouldn't delete Jim Causley for that code?

I also see that you might have pulled that ID from Sean Mattingly's site, he also has it with the same misspelling as Jim Clausey (sic).

John, I went thru your notes about Priehs also. This is where time frames become important. I seem to recall learning on the PY Forum that PMD may have issued new Dealer Codes at some point. In that case, 07-493 for Jim Causley may be completely unrelated to the Dealer Code list that existed in the '60s and '70s. Something to consider.

Mike, I believe one explanation for a Dealer having two codes is that some Dealers had an inventory lot location separate from the Dealer's Sales location.

I believe sometimes those dealers shipped cars to the inventory lot, other times to the Sales location.

For purposes of Billing, the Sales address was used.

On those occasions when they wanted a car delivered to the inventory lot, the "SHIP TO" would identify the alternate Dealer Code. On the '69 Invoices you will see a section labeled "SHIPPED TO - SAME (UNLESS OTHERWISE INDICATED)".

Zone Stock builds, common in '69, would show a Zone location "dealer" code.

But a Dealer ordered build might also show a different code for the Dealer being invoiced for the car if he wanted it delivered to his remote inventory location.

On the '65 BHC's there are boxes for the "CHARGE TO" Dealer code and the "SHIP TO" Dealer code for the same purpose. If the same, the "SHIP TO" Box is blank.

Never seen a '65 BHC with a "SHIP TO" code. But I assume it is possible and likely some examples exist.

Mike, it is good that you are tracking the time frames for the Dealer addresses.

It seems many dealers moved out of the downtowns in the '60s and '70s. And many suburban locations changed too as biz grew. Hard to track when they moved.

I'm wondering if Jim Causley, Inc. was assigned BOTH 07-099 and 07-100 BEFORE moving out of Detroit? Could have been true if he had a separate inventory lot location.

Reason I'm wondering this, I believe most times when a Dealer relocated, he kept his Dealer Code. I know I have seen examples where that was true.

Unless he operated for a time at both the old and new locations, it doesn't seem logical to me that he would have been assigned a new code just because he changed addresses.

It seems to me, he might have had both Dealer codes for the Detroit operation, then when he moved, might have only retained the one, figuring he no longer needed a separate inventory lot location.

Just thinking out loud I guess that the "original" address for 07-100 may have been in Detroit, connected to his Mack Ave. business.

John, I found some info about Priehs Motor Sales Co.

It was formed by Frank Priehs and his brother Louis in 1920. They bought the property at 103 Macomb St. in Mt. Clemens from their father, a livery stable located there.

Originally had Cadillac, Buick, and LaSalle franchises. In 1925, Frank bought out his brother. In 1928, he bought a large vacant lot next door and used it for a used car lot (presumably accounting for the address as 95-103 Macomb St.). "His dealership lasted for many years, finally being sold and divided" following the death of Frank Priehs in 1963. No mention of when they got the Pontiac dealership. Or when it got sold.

zimtok, Zone 19 is the Memphis, TN zone. But that Zone covered a lot of area. Do you have any idea where it was sold or any clues? Mike might have it on his list but if not, would help if you knew what city or anything else. What car is this for, model year?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John V.

John, I see you added the Stan Long identification. Wondering if you shouldn't delete Jim Causley for that code?

John, I went thru your notes about Priehs also. This is where time frames become important. I seem to recall learning on the PY Forum that PMD may have issued new Dealer Codes at some point. In that case, 07-493 for Jim Causley may be completely unrelated to the Dealer Code list that existed in the '60s and '70s. Something to consider.

Mike, it is good that you are tracking the time frames for the Dealer addresses.

It seems many dealers moved out of the downtowns in the '60s and '70s. And many suburban locations changed too as biz grew. Hard to track when they moved.

I'm wondering if Jim Causley, Inc. was assigned BOTH 07-099 and 07-100 BEFORE moving out of Detroit? Could have been true if he had a separate inventory lot location.

Reason I'm wondering this, I believe most times when a Dealer relocated, he kept his Dealer Code. I know I have seen examples where that was true.

Unless he operated for a time at both the old and new locations, it doesn't seem logical to me that he would have been assigned a new code just because he changed addresses.

It seems to me, he might have had both Dealer codes for the Detroit operation, then when he moved, might have only retained the one, figuring he no longer needed a separate inventory lot location.

Just thinking out loud I guess that the "original" address for 07-100 may have been in Detroit, connected to his Mack Ave. business.

I few comments: Jim Causley was a dedicated PONTIAC DEALERSHIP on Mack Avenue in Detroit. His Code 07-099 would have been the Pontiac code.

When things started getting bad on the east side of Detroit (former location of 95% of the Police and Fireman homes in Detroit when they were required to live in Detroit), Jim Causley purchased the Olds/Buick/GMC dealership on Gratiot Avenue. When Olds was dropped as a Brand, the Gratiot location picked up some Pontiac Business therefore the 07-100 number was probably added at that time for that location. (To sell Pontiac Vehicles there and at the 07-099 location in Detroit.) The dealerships were far enough apart to justify a separate dealer code for each location. When times got really tough in Detroit, Causley hung on selling Pontiacs and stayed at the Detroit location until Pontiac went down the tube. At that point, the 07-100 code would have been dropped but the 07-493 (assumed to be for the Buick/GMC Truck side of the business) would show up on the list for Jim Causley.

Tom V.

[MikeNoun]

John, I too had thought that a dealer having two codes may mean they had a storage lot.

Also interesting is how many invoices I've seen where one invoice uses a P.O. Box for an address, another (from the same dealer) used the dealer's full address. I haven't investigated the reasoning behind that. My first thought was that dealers had two codes for accounting purposes.

Zimtok, I'm sorry, I don't have that dealer code.

Earlier question about the Pontiac Retail Store location, the address was 65 University Drive, Pontiac MI.

Mike

[John V.]

Tom, great info.

Found a neat ad in a Michigan Opera Threatre program booklet that seems to have been published around late summer, early fall of 1976 (for their '76-'77 season).

Contains an ad for the Tri-County Pontiac Dealers (Detroit area).

Notice that the Gratiot Ave. dealership in Mt. Clemens was Randy Wood Pontiac-GMC, Inc. at that time.

Not sure when Jim Causley took over that biz location. And not sure if Randy Wood was the guy that took over from Priehs Pontiac, John W., aby idea about that?

But Causley's Mack Ave. dealership was also listed.

And I agree, if both locations were operating, PMD would have assigned a Dealer Code to each. Also, new Dealer Codes were issued when ownership changed at a location. SO I assume each owner from Priehs on got their own unique Dealer Code even if they did business at the same location as the prior Owner.

[MikeNoun]

John, that's a great ad! I remember Art Moran Pontiac on Telegraph Road. There was a large Chrysler Dealership, where I saw my first Plymouth Superbird, and Roger Penske Chevrolet, all within about 1/2 mile of each other.

Packer Pontiac had a location in Detroit, then used the same dealer code (07-607) for a location in Pontiac (perhaps they moved), then a second code (07-608) for the same address in Pontiac.

[Tom Vaught]

I believe Packer Pontiac moved out of Detroit in 1974 based on this post by a mechanic who worked for Packer Pontiac:

"Packer Pontiac was at 18650 Livernois, south of Seven Mile. I worked there 71-72.

(I) Went in with a inventory crew after Palmer Pontiac closed in '90 or '91.

It felt strange, it still looked the same inside. In fact, in the showroom you could still see painted on the wall to the Service Department "America's Largest Pontiac Dealer".

The Packers owned three, the others were in Miami and in Flint. Packer advertised and painted on the showroom windows,"Detroit, I'm Here For Good" in '72 due to dealers moving to the 'burbs. A couple of years later, he followed."

So that is what I base my 1974 Packer "Move Out of Detroit" info on, Mike.

Tom V.

[John V.]

One more comment about the 07-493 code.

I mentioned earlier that I thought I recalled learning that Pontiac issued all new Dealer Codes at some point.

Tom, you could be right that this was a Buick code for Jim Causley.

But I'm thinking since they continued as a Pontiac dealer to the very end, it is just as likely that 07-493 was the Pontiac code assignment after the old dealer codes were abandoned.

Anybody have any info to comfirm what I'm vaguely remembering about all new codes being issued to all Pontiac dealers at some point?

[Tom Vaught]

My uncle had his Dealerships / code assignments until after his passing and a different dealer took over his location. Not aware that his numbers ever changed John.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

Anybody have any info to comfirm what I'm vaguely remembering about all new codes being issued to all Pontiac dealers at some point?

I know that in 1967 they changed the 01 zone (which was Canada) to zone 81.

Not sure if they re-did all of them, but don't think so.

Also seems like in the 80's they changed the codes for all the plants, more like GM than just Pontiac or Buick, chevy, etc?

[John V.]

Definitely not before 1980 because I bought a new Pontiac that year from Haggerty Pontiac in Villa Park, Ill and they had the same Dealer Code as from the '60s as I recall it.

Tom, when was the latest your uncle had his code?

If the codes changed, I thought it might have been in the late '80s or even the '90s.

Can't say for sure, but I thought it was a retired GM guy that mentioned it in a thread here some years ago.

Don't know why else I'm remembering that possibility.

[Tom Vaught]

Well John, my cousin says that the Pontiac Dealership number never changed from the time my Uncle opened the Pontiac "store" (he had several "stores") until she sold the businesses in 1999. He was in the game for 67 years.

My cousin ran the dealerships for 7 years after my uncle's passing.

Tom V.

[1969GiPper]

Don’t mean to hijack this topic but with all the comments regarding Jim Causley Pontiac I thought that I’d chime in with what I remember.

My first time at Jim Causley Pontiac was when my father bought a new 1964 Star Chief from him at his dealership located at 17677 Mack Ave in Detroit. At that time all he sold was Pontiacs. I believe the salesman name was Bill Koch.

Starting in the early 70’s I was in and out of there somewhat often. Sometime in the early to mid-1970’s Causley added a GMC franchise. The trucks were kept at a second location about one block north on Mack Ave. The service center for them was built large enough to accommodate the GMC motorhomes that were manufactured from 1973 to 1978.

I ordered and purchased a new 1977 Grand Prix SJ from Causley in September 1976 at the Mack Ave location. Salesman’s name was John Fennessey and the General Manager was Ray Laethem. I recently found an old folder containing the original hand written sales order form and copies of repair orders for that car. Sorry no dealer codes on any of them.

At this time there was another Pontiac dealer called Randy Wood that was located on Gratiot Ave north of Metro Parkway (a.k.a. 16 mile rd.) in Clinton Township, MI. Sometime later Jim Causley purchased Randy Wood Pontiac and changed the name to James Pontiac and gave it to his son James (Jr?) to run. Can’t remember when GMC got added to the location. In 1980 Jim Causley sold his Mack Ave dealership (Pontiac/GMC) to his General Manager Ray Laethem. The dealership is still there and before Pontiac went away it added a Buick franchise. Ray Laethem passed away in 2010 and I believe his son now runs it. Today it’s a Buick/GMC franchise and they also have a Chrysler/Jeep/Ram dealership up the street and it is also named Ray Laethem. As for Jim Causley he took over what was then called James Pontiac/GMC and sent his son James to run a dealership in Port Huron or Saint Clair Michigan. Seem to remember it was a Chevrolet/Oldsmobile store. Causley then changed the name of the Gratiot Ave dealership from James to Jim Causley Pontiac/GMC.

Sometime later Jim Causley brought his son James back to Clinton Township and gave him a dealership down Gratiot Ave that was called Bernie Hout Chevrolet (formerly Ernie Grissom Chevrolet) to run. Under Causley the name was changed to James Chevrolet.

Jim Causley passed away in February 2003 at age 73 and around that time James Chevrolet got sold and became Moran Chevrolet. Don’t know what happened to Causley’s son James. Jim Causley Pontiac/GMC dealership on Gratiot Ave still exists and is run by one of his other sons (Rob?). When Pontiac Division went away they picked up a Buick franchise. So as of now it’s called Jim Causley Buick/GMC.

As for how many dealer codes Jim Causley Pontiac had and what they were I don’t know. It’s probably safe to say that he had a Pontiac dealer code and a GMC dealer code while located on Mack Ave in Detroit. But after that who knows. For what it’s worth I’ve heard many times that Jim Causley owned more than just the dealers I’ve listed here.

[Tom Vaught]

Even thought the Money came from the same place (Jim Causley), unless he put the actual ownership paperwork in one of his sons hands and they received a new Dealer Code it would seem that Jim Causley had a Dealer number for each store he actually owned. He would have kept that number until his passing.

My Uncle over the years owned a Cadillac dealership, a GMC Dealership, a Pontiac Dealership, and until Olds went under a Olds dealership. He owned a Buick dealership for a period of time (purchased from a deceased owner's wife) but quickly sold it to another Buick dealer so that he did not have to acquire a unique number for that store.

If you had the funds you could own multiple stores of different GM Brands.
Today the stores (Locations) are allowed to even carry off shore inventory at the same location.

Ford did that deal with some Ford/Mazda locations

Tom V.

[johnta1]

Thanks for the information, 1969GiPper.

[John V.]

Finally found the thread that talked about the renumbering of Pontiac Dealer Codes.

See Transamric's post #22.

Rereading that post now, I think I realize my error trying to interpret this.

Looks like PMD consolidated a few Zones at some point.

So by Aug. 1990, Ric had learned that new Dealer Code assignments were made for the new Zone 23. In the consolidation, this new Zone took on parts of the old Zone 23 (SF), Zone 24 (LA), and Zone 25 (Seattle).

Dealers in the new Zone 23 were given new Dealer Codes and they were NOT in alphabetical order.

At the time, I jumped to the conclusion that ALL Pontiac dealers received new codes in ALL Zones.

But with Tom explaining that his Uncle had the same Dealer code thru 1999, I now believe that the renumbering only occurred where Zone offices were consolidated.

Don't know where else that happened but I assume not all Zones were affected by consolidation and dealers in those unaffected Zones had no reason to get new Dealer Codes.

Here is the old thread that you can review and interpret for yourself. Curious to know if anybody knows anything more about PMD Zone office consolidations elsewhere.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=587105

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I put together this list from Pete's book of the dealer codes which received '63 Super Duty Catalinas. I think it is a pretty comprehensive list of "special" dealer codes that have ties to the factory.

K

Revisiting this old thread for a couple reasons:

a) As I have mentioned, when I retired I had to forfeit my laptop without much notice, so I lost all my photos, emails and excel spreadsheets. As a result, I have been attempting to rebuild my various databases as I find things that I had previously posted.

b) After finding my dealer code list, I took this opportunity to update my data based on the info in this thread. I was able to cut the list of "unknowns" about in half.

Updated Super Duty list attached below, now sorted by zone and dealer. Facilities associated with PMD are highlighted in yellow.

I think it's a pretty cool list of probably special dealers who received very special cars.

K

[johnta1]

Cool list!




I have Bob Cutts as 04 119 Bob Cutts Pontiac PO Box 957 Salem VA 24153

I have 04 479 as Woodson Pontiac Inc PO Box 5495 3926 Williamson Rd N.W. Roanoke VA

And this is what I have for Packer and Knafel:

07 607 Packer Pontiac 18650 Livernois Detroit MI
07 608 Packer Pontiac 500 South Opdyke Road Pontiac MI 48057

08 197 Knafel Pontiac Inc 956 S Main St Akron OH 44311