[nightwrencher]

my starter doesn't crank much after the engine is hot. when cold, first start it cranks fine, and can crank for a long time if wanted, but after I drive it five miles or more (to get gas) it's dead, like the battery is dead. let it cool daown for a while, or keep finiking with it, and it will crank. gets cold again, works good as new. I'm assuming over the last few years the heat from the header must have worn down my starter. it has low miles and about five years after install. it is a summmit high torque mini-starter. I've since wrapped the starter and batt cable in a heat blanket, but I think I'm a day late, dollar short. Is there a way to test this to be certain w/o buying anythihng? and does anyone know if I can buy just a replacement motor for my mini-starter, I couldn't find any listings on summit but you never know. the headers do run kinda close to the starter. I'm hoping the heat blanket will keep a new motor from burning up. (I will also move up to a bigger batt cable(batt in trun used a summit kit years ago, but a new cable costs about as much as the starter!)

[bankbook]

Sent mine back and had it rebuilt for 60 dollars last month. Mine is the IMI Hi Torque one, was about seven years old. Call Summiit and ask their tech who makes it for them.

[66Mutt]

My starter had the dead click when the engine was hot. I ended up running a Ford Solenoid and beefed up wire to tht e GM solenoid. I think my is just a sympton of an old harness that was not geeting enough juice through the normal circuit.
Doug

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Need to check and see if there's power on the solenoid engage wire when it wont crank. If you're not getting a click or anything, it could be low or no voltage on that wire (originally the purple wire). Could just be brushes worn out.

Most of those mini starters look like modified Nissan or foreign car starters to me. I just dealt with a hot no start problem on one of them. Part store wanted BIG $$$ for a rebuilt, and five dollars for brushes, from an alternator starter shop, was all it took to fix it.

Depending on availibility of rebuild parts, sending it back might be your only option. If it is the starter, you might want to check with a local rebuilder.

Good luck and keep us updated on this. Problems with the mini's seem to be coming up a bunch lately. Especially ones with a few years of use, even ones with low milage.

[Aus Goat]

sounds like the power wire is getting too hot and loosing current.( its small from the start )
try a 30amp wire from your alt to the starter motor that will help short term.
option 1 - short wire straight over the block but you will need to wrap it in thermal wrap
option 2 - longer wire trying to stay away from heat - heat means current loss
i did option 1 worked straight away just protect that wire from earthing out too

long term invest in a new starter transducer system this will bring current up to the near the starter . then blast the current at the Solenoid starter giving you the juice you need .

[nightwrencher]

it doesn't click, it keeps slowly turning the engine and the more you try the more the solenoid/wires heat up so I don't push it. have remote solenoid in trunk and starter sol. jumpered. battery only has about 10" out of passenger compartment, chopped off exposed end and re-termed it just to see if would help. unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a "rebuilder" of anything but engines locally. I'll try calling summit tomorrow.

can I test the voltage at the starter while cranking and hot? would a hot cold comparison of any tests tell me anything. I tend to forget all the elec tests for a starter and how to do them. there's the voltage drop, and checking voltage while cranking, am I missing anything? I just always feel better with a positive diagnosis before buying parts.

[nightwrencher]

summit says, "we don't know who makes the starters for us." I guess they just write the check to "cash" when the shipment comes in. my starter is pn sum-820311

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by nightwrencher

summit says, "we don't know who makes the starters for us." I guess they just write the check to "cash" when the shipment comes in. my starter is pn sum-820311

I hear this same BS when ever someone has "private label" items made, they don't want you to see who makes their stuff and see their profit margin. If I owned Summitt I would do the same thing.

Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Check this company out.

http://www.cvrproducts.com/protorque_starters.html

This statement from them makes me think they'll be a bit more helpfull.
"• Easily Replaceable Plunger and Contacts"

Let us know what you find out.

[stellar]

As a rebuilder, I have worked on quite a few summit units, starters and alternators. I am sometimes amazed at the poor quality of parts in them and the assembly. I sometimes wonder what 8 year old assembled it and what 6 year old designed it. You must take into consideration I only see the bad ones. Since yours is a few years old I doubt if it is a poor quality unit.

The starter you have is a nippondenso basic design with an after market housing and drive assembly to fit your application. I have rebuilt thousands of the nippondenso starters and it is an excellent unit. The symptoms you have described, if caused by the starter are very rare. From your description, I think the starter is the problem. If you take the starter apart, I think you will find the solenoid windings have been smoked, burrnt cooked or whatever you want to call it. It is also a good possibility the armature has seen the same abuse. The reason I say abuse is because this is usually caused by cranking the snot out of them or cranking them on a low battery. Have you done this to this starter in the past? If you remove the starter , take the rear cover off,3 bolts. Take a sniff, if it is cooked you will smell it right away. If it stinks the starter is history as all windings in the starter may need replaced. Either buy another one or have it rebuilt by a quality rebuilder. Good luck Mark

[nightwrencher]

I took the cover off yesterday, conatacts looked a little pitted, but not burnt, didn't notice a smell. nitices some corrosion on the switch terminal where the wire is soldered to it. I cleaned up the contacts and plunger for the batt terminals. I was going to run it with the batt term jumpered to each other and to switch in case I was loosing voltage (have a remote solenoid). now the pinion won't pop out, even when bench testing it w/o the jumper. motor/pinion spins, but doesn't pop out. am I right in thinking that the operation is: power ges to switch terminal, creates magnetic field that pulls plunger down simutaneously connecting batt terminals and pushing the pinion out? or should the pinion come out independant from the solenoid. I made another post about this, but still same subject as here.

[nightwrencher]

bench tested again, it WILL work when bott term. not jumpered. seems like the solenoid needs the split second of the switch having voltage and the batt term's still open. on the bench, if I jumper it after the pinion pops out-it stays out, if it's jumpered beforehand, it will not.

I guess there just isn't a way to bypass the "suspected" problems. have to decide weather to call cvr to rebuild or try buying a new solenoid. now that I understand how the connection works in the solenoid, I am doubting that the problem, as long as that disc contacts when hot, there shouldn't be any loss of voltage. wondering if it's wise to pull the whole motor apart to check the brushes, I don't have any good experiences pulling windings out etc. It's not like a power tool where the brushes can be accessed from outside the housing.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

I'd check the brushes. Slow turning, like weak battery, was the problem I was having when the brushes were worn out. You can also check the bushings for wear/dragging while you have it apart.
Armature can be tested with an ohm meter. From the looks of the case, the magnets may be permanent (no windings).

Of course all this depends on the availibility of parts.

[stellar]

I don't understand how you are testing this unit. All you need to do is ground the case. apply positive cable to bat post and with a small jumper wire jump from pos post to small switch post. Starter should kick out and spin. If you have limited experience with this type of starter I recomend you do not attempt to rebuild on your own. Anything other than changing contacts may be too difficult. If you had the brushes out, you may have a pos brush lead grounding against the end cap. If armature and solenoid windings or field windings are bad, the cost of replacement parts may excede the cost of another complete unit. If you can't find a local rebuilder, you can send it to me and I would be happy to look at it for you. Mark

[nightwrencher]

I didn't actually take anything apart. took off the solenoid cover, just cleaned plugber/batt contacts. pinion does kick out when using the intended terminals. If I jumper the term going directly to motor (sol. output) beforehand, pinion doesn't pop out. anyway, I tested volts at motor term when it was hot and slow-turning, around 9volts +/- .15. just tested it cold and spinning quickly, same thing. although that reading sounds low, it still spins plenty cold.

I am getting rusty in my car crafting, yet didn't quite hit 30 yet. can someone give me a guide of tests to do when taking the whole thing apart, at this point, I don't have much to loose besides starting the car cold to move it around my property.

I know I'm being cheap, but I'm poor and have an OCD issue that wants to know WHAT broke. ultimately I know if I replace the starter and batt cable, and keep the heat blanket, I'll probably be ok

[ponchofan2]

Have you tried another battery? Had same problem years ago with a GTO, turned out the battery had a bad cell.

[george kujanski]

When hot, the engine requires more torque to crank. A reduction gear starter (like the one you have) should have no problem cranking the engine as long as you can feed it the current it needs.

You have the battery in the trunk which I think is the source of your problems. You need large battery cables going to the engine, that includes a large negative cable going to the block also. Just connecting it to the body/frame back there may not be a good connection.

The acid test may be to temporarily mount the batt closer to the engine to see if that alleviates your problem. Check your charging system to make sure the batt is getting charged while you drive after starting. If it's not getting charged back up, it will cause the symptoms you see. With the batt in the trunk, the charging voltage at the battery may be too low, check it while running, it should be about 14.0.

George

[stellar]

If George is right you may need to move your sense wire. Possibly to the battery in the trunk. This will make the alt charge at a higher rate to keep the battery voltage up.

[61 CAT]

very interesting comments & solutions
my friend had a 62 Grand Prix Tri Power car he bought it because it was a good deal and super clean Black on Black car

He was a Ford man all the way, his biggest bitch about the car is once the car got up to the temp. the car was hard starting or wouldn't start at all until it cool down

even with his wrapping cloth heat shielding around the cable and exhaust, the battery was under the hood

he finally sold the car mainly because of this and GM's were on his short list of favorites

as for me i go the other way GM's are on the top of my list and i never had that good luck Fords

[Old Goat 67]

FWIW,

George is always right!

Charles