#41  
Old 08-31-2020, 05:14 PM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
There is nothing that says this "badge" is "Formula specific" ( RE the title of this thread) .
I have been scoffed at before, so I'm expecting some scoffing from this one;
I am pretty sure I have said this elsewhere before...

My belief is that the 1970 "Firebird Formula 400" started out as essentially a model carry over from the 1969 "Firebird 400", and that this badge was a leftover part from the model carry over.

Before you start typing a response, please humour me for just a bit longer...

We have found evidence that the "Formula 400" model name wasn't there from the beginning, to the extent that:
  • Pontiac solicited for opinions on possible names;
  • If anyone orders PHS paperwork for a 1970 Formula, I do believe that in the model box, every single one of them clearly states "Firebird 400" - just like the 1967-1969 cars
  • If you look at the base equipment between a 1969 & 1970 'Firebird 400', they are virtual mirrors of each other.

All of this seems to point to the model starting out as a 'Firebird 400' then late in the game changing to a 'Firebird Formula 400';
Surely one cannot argue that in the first generation the 'Firebird 400' had a trunk badge right there;
Surely one cannot argue that the style of font, and colour is reminiscent of the 67-69 trunk badge.
Since the only 67-69 model to have an engine callout on the trunk lid was the 'Firebird 400', it seems logical to me that this was intended to be the 1970 'Firebird 400' trunk badge.

Now, to the possibility of this being used for any other model;
I again believe that Pontiac was being thematic in the model year revisions, ornamentation, and equipment, and to that effect:
> if a base model had the optional L30-350/2bbl, it had lower fender badges in a completely different font style than this badge;
> if an Esprit model had the optional L65-400/2bbl, it had lower fender badges in the same font style and location as the base model "350" fender badges.
I believe that if this was intended to be a callout for a 1970 Esprit 400 car, that it would have been in the same font style as the Esprit "400" fender badge. I also believe that if this was intended to be an Esprit 400 callout, that we should see a base 350 callout in that same picture.

Where do both of these points lead us?

1) We have a badge that was unquestionably discontinued early in the model year, quite probably before production started.

2) We have a badge that is in a different style font than anything that remained as a production badge for the 1970 model year.

Even though the master parts catalogue listing doesn't conclusively say that it's a "W66" badge, I believe that to say it was implied isn't a great stretch, and was probably the intended rear end callout for the "W66" model.

The only point of confusion is that this rear end image is attributed to the base, Esprit, and Formula models, but if you look at the image again with everything I have written as the backdrop, it seems that there is only one logical answer.



Now, why am I replying to that comment the better part of two years later(?);
Well that's easy, even though I have realistically given up hope of having one of these badges, I still occasionally look up this thread to confirm the part number before doing yet another search for it.
(and sometimes when I revisit threads after a while, I re-read them)

I mean I don't stop buying the occasional lottery ticket just because I haven't won yet... so I'm keeping the dream alive

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #42  
Old 08-31-2020, 06:11 PM
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There's always hope!!

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  #43  
Old 08-31-2020, 06:37 PM
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For what it's worth, p/n 9808505 is listed in the online parts database as fitting series 23 cars in 1970 only, but it doesn't say Formula specifically. However, the database isn't necessarily that specific or 100% accurate.

  #44  
Old 08-31-2020, 06:42 PM
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1971455HO 1971455HO is offline
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Johnny my man, I beg to differ with those who say it didn't exist. Why would it be listed in the MPC as Key 11. Part No. 9808505 Name: PLATE, Lid- "400" under Group No. 12.182 ???? I think it did and is just almost unobtainable. The catalog says, excluding 2387 (6-cyl) base bird & 2487 (350) Esprit, that it was part of any 2687 bodied Firebird with the "400" Option other than the 2887 bodied Trans Am

You even have a picture of it and the GM box it came in! Tell you what...I'll help you find one if one can be had.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
I have posted here before about my interest in acquiring this badge;
LINK


Rear trunk "400" badge (early '70 model year Formula only) #9808505

It has been suggested that it doesn't exist because no one here can recall seeing one on a production car - but it has been spotted;

A members NOS part:



I would still earnestly like this part, and while looking on eBay today I was thinking that I never asked what might seem to be an obvious question;

For those of you who have seen or owned this badge, how does it differ from a 67-69 trunk badge?
(I am guessing that it's thick at the top, where the 69 part is thick at the bottom... but that's just a guess)

I really hope to hear some replies...

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  #45  
Old 08-31-2020, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post

Even though the master parts catalogue listing doesn't conclusively say that it's a "W66" badge, I believe that to say it was implied isn't a great stretch, and was probably the intended rear end callout for the "W66" model.

The only point of confusion is that this rear end image is attributed to the base, Esprit, and Formula models, but if you look at the image again with everything I have written as the backdrop, it seems that there is only one logical answer.
I think your theory is credible.

In addition, it's possible, had its usage not been cancelled, that the 400 trunk badge would have been used on Esprits equipped with the 400 as well. For '67-'69, no other model besides the Firebird 400 was available with a 400. But in '70, it was possible to get an Esprit with one.

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  #46  
Old 08-31-2020, 11:05 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971455HO View Post
Johnny my man, I beg to differ with those who say it didn't exist. Why would it be listed in the MPC as Key 11. Part No. 9808505 Name: PLATE, Lid- "400" under Group No. 12.182 ???? I think it did and is just almost unobtainable. The catalog says, excluding 2387 (6-cyl) base bird & 2487 (350) Esprit, that it was part of any 2687 bodied Firebird with the "400" Option other than the 2887 bodied Trans Am

You even have a picture of it and the GM box it came in! Tell you what...I'll help you find one if one can be had.

It’s already been proven to exist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  #47  
Old 09-01-2020, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post

Now, to the possibility of this being used for any other model;
I again believe that Pontiac was being thematic in the model year revisions, ornamentation, and equipment, and to that effect:
> if a base model had the optional L30-350/2bbl, it had lower fender badges in a completely different font style than this badge;
> if an Esprit model had the optional L65-400/2bbl, it had lower fender badges in the same font style and location as the base model "350" fender badges.
I believe that if this was intended to be a callout for a 1970 Esprit 400 car, that it would have been in the same font style as the Esprit "400" fender badge. I also believe that if this was intended to be an Esprit 400 callout, that we should see a base 350 callout in that same picture.
With all due respect, This is pure conjecture. Lets look at couple items that are very EASY to forget.
The Main purpose of any car being built is to make money, and fast.
There was no dept of Emblems at GM design.
Often in the GM world, and especially Pontiac, Emblem were crossed over from other models, true until 2010 Pontiacs were made.
Marketing approved of design and badging and worked with design, to a degree.
Yes, the Pontiac Firebird 400 was a very popular model due to the marketing and pure sound of saying it.. "Firebird 400" It was never a model per se , but it was in marketing.
Carry over to a late to the game new 1970 model was surely discussed to keep the Pontiac interest up. After all a 400 IS bigger than a 396 !
Production of F bodys in late 69 went on into the 1970 "model year"
I personally have seen 1970 B bodies that were OLDER than 1969 F bodys.
A trip to GM Canada will show in the 1970 Full line brochure a 1970 Firebird.....
.... But Its a picture of a '69....
The car in the Fisher body video... Look at a few things it has. Pull strap on dash, and the list of ESPRIT options are present as standard equipment.
My Point is that GM would do Anything to sell cars, carry over a engine badge included.
I will tend to agree that the Firebird 400 ended up a Formula as the front fender spells it right out, But, With 400 engine availability in other models, not all Firebirds, its not beyond GM to have put these , "or intended to", on all 400 Firebirds.
Pontiac did buy these emblems and I am sure they had more than a handful. I saw some at Carlisle in the 80's and may have even bought a couple.
More logic... First gen cars had the emblem holes in the deck lid done by Fisher body Before paint. I doubt any 70 model year decklids had holes for these and Pontiac just let it go to keep the cars moving along at 1 F body every 45 seconds.
I am betting ( my own conjecture) that is WAS a last minute Intended change to drag the "Firebird 400" into the next generation, and it got nixed due to the decklids not being punched.
Emblems were wharehoused till someone saw the number and ordered one, or more and that order took time as it was not in parts. After a few years they were put in "Z" location in parts ( zero value till sold) .
While this emblem IS way Cool, and a Carry over like a Lot of the 70 Firebird is ( engine mostly) , I think some holes in the trunk spelled its demise because sales Dept's would have eaten it up.
I heard many customers into the late 70's ask a salesman "Does it have THE 400?" Kinda like the last 10 years of hemi talk...
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  #48  
Old 09-01-2020, 11:28 AM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
With all due respect, This is pure conjecture.
I don't disagree.

But I'd suggest that your cited example isn't a badge indicative of the vehicles displacement per say, but rather the model.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #49  
Old 09-01-2020, 12:28 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Imma go ahead and leave this right here for now......

  #50  
Old 09-01-2020, 01:35 PM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Originally Posted by FASTASSBIRD View Post


Imma go ahead and leave this right here for now......
LOL

Since you've spoken up, did you happen to see the private message I sent you two weeks ago?

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #51  
Old 09-01-2020, 02:27 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
LOL

Since you've spoken up, did you happen to see the private message I sent you two weeks ago?

Yep, I responded back. Idk it currently looks real comfortable sitting next to this......

  #52  
Old 09-01-2020, 03:10 PM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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well that's weird;
I never received the reply!?

Ok fair enough.

What's going on with that knob?
is it a wood one that someone leather wrapped(?) because it doesn't look like the shape of the simulated leather knob (complete with raised simulated stitched sides);
I have the early production leather/red knob for the three speed, and other than the insert, it's a dead ringer for the 71-76(?) four speed knob.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #53  
Old 09-01-2020, 03:58 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
well that's weird;
I never received the reply!?

Ok fair enough.

What's going on with that knob?
is it a wood one that someone leather wrapped(?) because it doesn't look like the shape of the simulated leather knob (complete with raised simulated stitched sides);
I have the early production leather/red knob for the three speed, and other than the insert, it's a dead ringer for the 71-76(?) four speed knob.

Nope, it’s the infamous never made it into production red insert 70 knob. You should recognize it. You commented on the picture it showed up in on Facebook lol. It’s gorgeous and legit.


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  #54  
Old 09-01-2020, 08:58 PM
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This emblem looks a lot like the ones on my 1973 GMC Sprint, with a 400 small block cheby.

  #55  
Old 09-02-2020, 12:03 AM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
This emblem looks a lot like the ones on my 1973 GMC Sprint, with a 400 small block cheby.

Does it have this part number?

  #56  
Old 09-02-2020, 10:06 AM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTASSBIRD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
This emblem looks a lot like the ones on my 1973 GMC Sprint, with a 400 small block cheby.
Does it have this part number?
I am pretty sure I have that badge;
but it could be from something else;
It's flat, the "400" script is straight up and down, and the casted part number is 342118



It's the one on the right.
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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #57  
Old 09-03-2020, 11:47 AM
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Rocky Rotella Rocky Rotella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
There was no dept of Emblems at GM design. Often in the GM world, and especially Pontiac, Emblem were crossed over from other models, true until 2010 Pontiacs were made.
Marketing approved of design and badging and worked with design, to a degree.
Bruce,

I just wanted to point out that (at least that that time) there was a studio within GM Design Staff dedicated to badging. It was named Graphics Studio and it was responsible for developing lettering, badges, and graphics based on requests from the specific division. They'd then work with the divisional studio chief and/or the motor division to tailor the final design for the model or concept, based on who requested it.

When writing my 70-81 Firebird book I asked Schinella why the font on the Trans Am lettering changes for the 1978 model year. He said he really didn't know why. He explained that lettering didn't fall under the responsibility of Pontiac Studio (exterior). Graphics Studio handled that and the it may have proposed to a change to Pontiac or Pontiac could have initiated the request.

As it relates to the "400" badge discussed here, it means little more than Pontiac Studio or Motor Division asked for a badge it planned to use on a specific model and was ultimately designed in Graphics Studio.

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  #58  
Old 10-06-2020, 08:41 AM
RamAirBirds RamAirBirds is offline
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Default 1970 Formula unobtainable badge

NEVER say Never.....
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  #59  
Old 10-07-2020, 12:29 AM
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NEVER say Never.....
unruhjonny's Avatar
unruhjonny

what are waiting on. See what he just dropped out there for ya.::.

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Son video'd this...
http://s223.photobucket.com/user/fas...a.mp4.html?o=0
  #60  
Old 10-07-2020, 09:30 AM
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I first thought he meant one was on ebay, so I quickly did several searches;
Then I figured that he was saying there is always hope to find one, and shared pictures of his badge.

I haven't said never, I have just accepted I probably won't have one.
But I am still hopeful, I still look for it, and I still occasionally play the lottery.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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