[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Really?

Stan

I think so Stan. Its my opinion. And was Dan Whitmores also. That engine would have made as much HP as the stock LS6 and more torque.
It would have ruled the streets.

[steve25]

I never said that the GP was a A body, please go reread what I posted.

[Formulajones]

Stan is right. I love Pontiacs just as much as anyone here but I build both BBC and Pontiacs and I can tell you it's much easier, and cheaper, to make power with the BBC's. Especially if you are going to use all production parts.

Get into all the aftermarket stuff and it starts to become a more even playing field thanks to some companies stepping up to the plate for Pontiac, but even with that the BBC just has a more superior head design to start with.

You can bench race it all you want and talk about could have or would have, lol. It makes an entertaining discussion but at the end of the day it's not what I'm seeing on the dyno or at the track.

[ponyakr]

I have absolutely nothing constructive to add to this thread.

BUT, as just a casual observer, it seems that more & more often, when discussing Pontiac engines, somebody always eventually says how much more power some other brand will make, & how much cheaper a Chevy based engine can be built.

My opinion is WHO CARES ?

If somebody wants a Chevy engine, buy or build one. If someone wants a 10,000hp nitro engine & has the money to build one, do it.

But if someone just wants to badmouth the Pontiac engine & post how inferior it is, why post that on a Pontiac forum ?

I suspect there are FAR more Chevy forums where the greatness of Chevy engines can be discussed.

Opinions differ.

PS: Not meant as a put down to any particular member here. LOTS of members here have been guilty of it. I've also mentioned the fact that a small block Chevy engine can be built much cheaper than a Pontiac. But, I always recommend a Pontiac, for those who can afford it, NOT because it's the greatest engine design ever. But mostly because I'm a Pontiac freek, & I like to see a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac body, especially if that body came from the factory with a Pontiac engine. We're all entitled to our opinion.

[AC445]

Hello all, In the early 70's I was attending a Pontiac class at the G.M. tech center in Warren,Mich. The instructor told me that George Delorean had a shop a little north off of rt. 75. I called and George said I could come by after class.I drove up and found Leader Automotive .He gave me a tour and showed me a lot of parts I never knew existed. There were aluminum blocks,small chamber S.D.455 heads, forged cranks, and RAM V parts. There was a mock-up V engine with V intake flanges and a ford tunnel port 2 four barrel top they were mating together for a customer. If the instructor hadn't sent me I probably wouldn't have got past the counter.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I have absolutely nothing constructive to add to this thread.

BUT, as just a casual observer, it seems that more & more often, when discussing Pontiac engines, somebody always eventually says how much more power some other brand will make, & how much cheaper a Chevy based engine can be built.

My opinion is WHO CARES ?

If somebody wants a Chevy engine, buy or build one. If someone wants a 10,000hp nitro engine & has the money to build one, do it.

But if someone just wants to badmouth the Pontiac engine & post how inferior it is, why post that on a Pontiac forum ?

I suspect there are FAR more Chevy forums where the greatness of Chevy engines can be discussed.

Opinions differ.

PS: Not meant as a put down to any particular member here. LOTS of members here have been guilty of it. I've also mentioned the fact that a small block Chevy engine can be built much cheaper than a Pontiac. But, I always recommend a Pontiac, for those who can afford it, NOT because it's the greatest engine design ever. But mostly because I'm a Pontiac freek, & I like to see a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac body, especially if that body came from the factory with a Pontiac engine. We're all entitled to our opinion.

I think if you read through the thread you'll get the impression that most in here do care. Don't think anyone is bad mouthing Pontiac either. Least I haven't seen that here. Not even sure why the comparison was brought up in the first place, it's not what Steve was asking about. I was simply stating the facts that I've seen with my experience building both engines in response to Stan and Dragncar, and it appears at least one of them is on the same page.
I suspect that most here that are diehard Pontiac fans wouldn't know or have experience with other brands. So you have to take those opinions with a grain of salt.
Besides, it's just bench racing, chit chat, interesting discussion. Like it or not.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I have absolutely nothing constructive to add to this thread.

BUT, as just a casual observer, it seems that more & more often, when discussing Pontiac engines, somebody always eventually says how much more power some other brand will make, & how much cheaper a Chevy based engine can be built.

My opinion is WHO CARES ?

If somebody wants a Chevy engine, buy or build one. If someone wants a 10,000hp nitro engine & has the money to build one, do it.

But if someone just wants to badmouth the Pontiac engine & post how inferior it is, why post that on a Pontiac forum ?

I suspect there are FAR more Chevy forums where the greatness of Chevy engines can be discussed.

Opinions differ.

PS: Not meant as a put down to any particular member here. LOTS of members here have been guilty of it. I've also mentioned the fact that a small block Chevy engine can be built much cheaper than a Pontiac. But, I always recommend a Pontiac, for those who can afford it, NOT because it's the greatest engine design ever. But mostly because I'm a Pontiac freek, & I like to see a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac body, especially if that body came from the factory with a Pontiac engine. We're all entitled to our opinion.

No one said to build or use a Chevy engine.

Dragncar like to say IF Pontiac did this or that, how much more power the Pontiac would have made as compared to the Chevy. A couple of us I just trying to tell it as it is.

Stan

[1968GTO421]

In the end, it is what it is.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by AC445

Hello all, In the early 70's I was attending a Pontiac class at the G.M. tech center in Warren,Mich. The instructor told me that George Delorean had a shop a little north off of rt. 75. I called and George said I could come by after class.I drove up and found Leader Automotive .He gave me a tour and showed me a lot of parts I never knew existed. There were aluminum blocks,small chamber S.D.455 heads, forged cranks, and RAM V parts. There was a mock-up V engine with V intake flanges and a ford tunnel port 2 four barrel top they were mating together for a customer. If the instructor hadn't sent me I probably wouldn't have got past the counter.

Thanks for that. A lot of people do not realize just how much effort, how much want there was a PMD to bring us up in the horsepower department to equal or pass up Chevy.
Thing is, the Vette had to be the fastest, most powerful GM car period. Its not that Pontiac did not want to compete with them, they did. You all remember the Opal GT ? 2 seater that looked sort of like the Vette ? THAT was a Pontiac design, they wanted to compete head to head with Chevy on their terms. But were not allowed to. You know that little "bulge" on the hood just to the driver side ? It was there because the only engine corporate would let them install was a inline 6. It was too high for the hood. Pontiac took a Chevy inline 6 and made their own far better head for it. Kinda like we did with a SD 4cyl head too.
Pontiac plans were a 428 with RAV heads, forged crank and a 2x4 tunnel. Like the intake that burned up in the Beswick barn fire.
There are LOTs of other stories about things like this. Dan Whitmore was my friend, new PMD engineers, knew all the dirt. The 1970 Pontiac 427 SOHC Hemi that was never allowed to see the light of day. It would have changed the rules. Far ahead of any Chevy engine, but Chevy could not have that now.
The people behind Pontiac had the biggest balls at GM and wanted to be the best but were artificially kept down.
I have said it before and will say it again, Pontiac are a BETTER street engine than Chevy. You can use mostly factory parts and get a street car in the 10s without turning big RPM. That means they last a long time.
At our track there are no 9-1 454s in Chevelles running quicker than me. Sure are not any running longer making the power I am. Built in 1990 and still running. They have all blown up 3-4 engines in that period running close ET-MPH.
This is a PONTIAC forum and full of Pontiac nuts like me. Is the BBC a better race engine, sure. Who cares, we like Pontiacs.
We all know in the end a BBC will out run a Pontiac. BUT, in the 500-650 HP street engines Pontiacs are better. Pontiacs have their niche. A lot of die hards love the Pontiac, no other long dead engine has so many hard core race parts available and developed on the dime's than our old Stratostreak V8.
The 1970 10-1 455 SD engine that got nixed by Chevy would have been a lot like my 455 HO, its a great street engine.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You know that little "bulge" on the hood just to the driver side ? It was there because the only engine corporate would let them install was a inline 6. It was too high for the hood.

Opel GT was offered with the buyer's choice of a 68 cubic inch 4 cylinder OHV engine or a 116 cubic inch 4 cylinder OHC engine. There was never a 6 cylinder engine offered.

[Formulajones]

Cracks me up how so many people get their panties in a twist over this brand is better than this or that. I've never really cared, I enjoy them all and love building, driving and racing any brand. Just poke the bear and sit back and giggle

If that Pontiac street car you have is so fast Dragncar, bring it out here to the muscle car drags and show everyone here in Arizona how it's done. I'm sure the PSCA has a class that fits your car. They are in Vegas next month. If ya want we can set up a friendly wager with my slow 454 that could blow up at anytime, it's been together for 20 years now making 600hp so it must be a ticking time bomb

[P@blo]

Too funny. Self declared champions and rulers of the roost after the chickens have been gone for 50+ years...

[Formulajones]

It's all just fun. If we can't enjoy a little rivalry and appreciate all classic cars in general then we are probably in the wrong hobby.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

... as much HP as the stock LS6 and more torque. It would have ruled the streets.

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

... how much more power the Pontiac would have made as compared to the Chevy. A couple of us I just trying to tell it as it is.

Stan

The 455 Pontiac's stroke suggests that it would have had more low end torque. And on
the street, torque monsters were a force to be reckoned with. The Stage1 Buicks are fine
examples. Take the 440 SixPack versus the Hemi, being forced to run someone down on
the top end isn't much fun on the street.

A sharp tune also makes a difference. Is it fair to say that Chevies are more sensitive?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

No one said to build or use a Chevy engine.

Dragncar like to say IF Pontiac did this or that, how much more power the Pontiac would have made as compared to the Chevy. A couple of us I just trying to tell it as it is.

Stan

Originally Posted by 242177P

The 455 Pontiac's stroke suggests that it would have had more low end torque. And on
the street, torque monsters were a force to be reckoned with. The Stage1 Buicks are fine
examples. Take the 440 SixPack versus the Hemi, being forced to run someone down on
the top end isn't much fun on the street.

A sharp tune also makes a difference. Is it fair to say that Chevies are more sensitive?

When quoting me Please don't snip my post to make it look I said something other that what I posted.

Stan

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

When quoting me Please don't snip my post to make it look I said something other that what I posted.

Stan

Lighten up. I did that with Dragncar's post too. I was trying to keep things a little simpler,
uncluttered perhaps. And it's not like I didn't use ellipses to indicate there was a change
made. Hell, I was tempted to lose the pointless "Stan" at the bottom, I declined because
there was a chance it might offend you.

It's Friday, crack open a cold one and relax.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Jim Mino not only ran with - but Out Ran LS6's and Hemi's with a 68 Firebird Ram2 400 in Pure Stock Musclecar classes in the 80's - 90's

Bruno did the exact same thing with his 69 GTO Ram4 400 , 20 years later in the 2010's.

^These are Facts ^

Jim is no longer with us, but I'm sure Bruno would say 28 or 55 more cubic inches would have been very welcome. And Jim Mino would probably have agreed too.

Don't see any reason why the 70 LS-1 455 SD Pontiac wouldn't have banged all their azzes in 1/4 mile Pure Stock racing, even more so.
It just seems kind of logical - in my opinion.
Especially if guys like Mino or Bruno were driving them.
But it wouldn't re-write all the record books or changed all the history in all the other classes or racing forms.
Don Garlits Richard Petty and John Force would have still used Hemi's
Big Chief Justin wouldn't be using LS-1 455SD today either


The 68 GTO 400 H/O was also rated 360hp, same as the 68 Ram1

Never was a 2bbl 428 in anything 67-68-69
67 4bbl Base 428 was 360hp
67 428 HO was 376hp

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

After Paul Goldsmith outran everything , lapped AJ Foyts 2nd Place 427 Corvette TWICE (5 mile spread) in 1963 at Daytona in a 421 SD Tempest/Lemans - Pontiac got put in their place.

That's what carved/curbed our history more than anything right there and then.
Chevy NEVER stopped race development, Ford and Mopar never had to.
Pontiac played secret squirrel just a little here and there until DeLorean left.
We got some decent stuff though, and the best looking cars.
Not so bad all in all

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Jim Mino not only ran with - but Out Ran LS6's and Hemi's with a 68 Firebird Ram2 400 in Pure Stock Musclecar classes in the 80's - 90's

Bruno did the exact same thing with his 69 GTO Ram4 400 , 20 years later in the 2010's.

^These are Facts ^

Jim is no longer with us, but I'm sure Bruno would say 28 or 55 more cubic inches would have been very welcome. And Jim Mino would probably have agreed too.

Don't see any reason why the 70 LS-1 455 SD Pontiac wouldn't have banged all their azzes in 1/4 mile Pure Stock racing, even more so.
It just seems kind of logical - in my opinion.
Especially if guys like Mino or Bruno were driving them.
But it wouldn't re-write all the record books or changed all the history in all the other classes or racing forms.
Don Garlits Richard Petty and John Force would have still used Hemi's
Big Chief Justin wouldn't be using LS-1 455SD today either


The 68 GTO 400 H/O was also rated 360hp, same as the 68 Ram1

Never was a 2bbl 428 in anything 67-68-69
67 4bbl Base 428 was 360hp
67 428 HO was 376hp

I think you are right.
Pontiacs are a great street engine. We did pretty good for having one hand tied behind our back IMO.
But you know, Big Chief kinda is using a 455 SD. Eddy Ram Air style aluminum heads with a 4" stroke engine to boot !! So its a fat bore 421 with aluminum Ram Air heads and twin hair dryers.
Must drive his competition nuts. Billet this, billet that vs cast-cast PMD style !

[P@blo]

Pontiac stands for:

Poor
Old
Nobody
Thinks
It's
A
Cadillac

If there were no cast parts there would have been no Pontiac