#41  
Old 09-08-2020, 07:24 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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Get the trans out and starter out and then try to turn it over with a breaker bar.Tom

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Old 09-08-2020, 10:26 PM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Trans almost out. Lining up a friend to help wiggle it out next weekend. Under the car it's a two-man job.

Everything else is disconnected.

Will try the breaker bar again after that. I think it's a 1% chance of a tranny issue, but that's better than 0%.

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  #43  
Old 09-08-2020, 11:19 PM
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My 2 cents. If you got a timing chain with a bronze washer behind it I had to sand it for clearance but it locked up tight when I torqued the cam bolt. Secondly have seen flywheel bolts be to long and dig into the block rear main. And another engine ran fine took it for a first rip made it exactly a 1/4 mile down and back locked up on deceleration all the rods were to tight. The crank polished up fine resized the rods and all was good. Sucked but not all that costly. Rod

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Old 09-09-2020, 02:06 AM
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Only wild card that blows out a lot of guesses is the closed up sparkplug gap. We can come up with some cool scenarios, but the closed gap still says something was floating around those three cylinders and not a bottom end seizure -- but mild since the borescope didn't find any massive trashing.

Did you try and turn the engine once the starter was dropped and the starter pinion was off the flywheel? There's a possibility that the starter dying after engaging the ring gear could keep the engine locked up. Even if you get lucky and the engine turns over after removing the starter you still need to trace down what closed up the gaps.

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  #45  
Old 09-09-2020, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Only wild card that blows out a lot of guesses is the closed up sparkplug gap. We can come up with some cool scenarios, but the closed gap still says something was floating around those three cylinders and not a bottom end seizure -- but mild since the borescope didn't find any massive trashing.
Most closed gaps on plugs I've seen (more than one plug) is from rod bearings spun that let the piston hit the plugs. But is usually accompanied by noise. The no noise thing is what is strange.

Weren't 4 wheeling were you? I've seen a chuck of wood get stuck between the damper and the oil pan. Locked it up quick. But also noticeable.



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  #46  
Old 09-09-2020, 07:43 AM
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Timing chain..Came loose.

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Old 09-09-2020, 10:05 AM
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Mick,thats why I suggested to pull the trans and starter!Tom

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Old 09-09-2020, 10:07 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Yes, the first thing I did Monday am was pull the starter to make sure there was no pinion issue interfering with the flywheel. Next will be tranny.

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1965 Pontiac GTO
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9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #49  
Old 09-09-2020, 10:26 AM
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I'm going way in here.. and a bit over a guys head.. but... I think the plugs are the most telling. Can't get around that despite all the tranny and timing belt stuff. In order to smash the plugs something had to be in there. The pistons didn't reach them on there own. That would have made quite a bit of noise lol. Also because you had 3 and not one smashed plug we can assume whatever got in there it happened in the intake and was distributed over multiple cylinders. So think stuff rather than "it"? When you dropped rpms vacuum increased. More pull for junk? So next question... if you suddenly smashed 3 plugs what would happen? Might just stop pretty quick. But seize? Not sure about that. Maybe chain reaction into some other part.

Somewhere along the line somebody left some stuff in the intake, carb or heads and it got processed. That made things very unhappy. Thats my guess. Why didn't it happen immediately. Who knows?

I would pull it. Take it all apart and see whats up. At this point what have you got to lose.

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Old 09-09-2020, 11:30 AM
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Sorry to hear about the mishap.

Spark plugs closed says something was floating around.

I'm assuming this thing has flat top pistons in it. The only time I've ever had a piston close a plug gap was with a dome piston.
The last 454 I spun a couple rod bearings in was so bad the piston was smacking the bottom of the cylinder head, and actually marked up the top of the piston. Never touched the spark plugs though, because it had flat tops in it. You would need to have a plug that actually stuck down below the entire combustion chamber for a flat top to touch it, and I've just never seen that.

Most Pontiac builds seem to have either flat tops or dished pistons so my feeling is the plugs weren't closed by the piston itself, but likely some foreign object that got in the combustion chamber. I would expect to see a mark (or 2) on the ground strap from contacting something as well.

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  #51  
Old 09-09-2020, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Sorry to hear about the mishap.

Spark plugs closed says something was floating around.

I'm assuming this thing has flat top pistons in it. The only time I've ever had a piston close a plug gap was with a dome piston.
The last 454 I spun a couple rod bearings in was so bad the piston was smacking the bottom of the cylinder head, and actually marked up the top of the piston. Never touched the spark plugs though, because it had flat tops in it. You would need to have a plug that actually stuck down below the entire combustion chamber for a flat top to touch it, and I've just never seen that.

Most Pontiac builds seem to have either flat tops or dished pistons so my feeling is the plugs weren't closed by the piston itself, but likely some foreign object that got in the combustion chamber. I would expect to see a mark (or 2) on the ground strap from contacting something as well.
My thoughts too. I would think a piston would hit the head 1`st, and the plug would be further up in the chamber.

  #52  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:43 PM
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Now pull the distributor and see if it turns.
Also push clutch in. SIITurns

  #53  
Old 09-09-2020, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbnapier View Post
Tom S - Thank you for the offer, my neighbor has one. I'll look to satisfy my curiosity, but the engine needs to come out regardless of what I see in the hole.

m.
If it is a timing chain or dropped/bent/sticking valve, engine may not need to come out. With plugs pulled, stick a screwdriver in plug holes and scope the cylinders that have pistons at top of cylinder. Pull valve covers and pay particular attention to those cylinders. I had valves float and get hit by a piston. and stop running. If you had your foot off the gas, that could be enough to stop engine. I had no internal damage- just needed a new valve and guide. After that I put in new lifters . I did have a 'friend' mechanic put together a Ford 302 for me that completely dropped a valve due to valve locks installed wrong, and my girlfriend drove it hundreds of miles, with a hole in the piston.

That doesn't account for the spark plugs, but maybe those somehow got by you when installing. Hopefully something simple. Trying to be hopeful with my reply.May just need heads pulled or timing cover removed. Seems like a snapped timing chain could make it impossible to turn engine. I've never had that issue.

I missed the whole second page of replies before posting this. Still hope it is minor, or relatively minor.


Last edited by dmac; 09-09-2020 at 05:41 PM.
  #54  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:28 PM
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Lay a straight edge across the tips of the valves
Check your carb for missing screws
I'm very curious to see what the plugs all look like.
Putting air into each cylinder with rockers removed will be very telling.
A thorough diagnosis will make for a viable and, install with confidence, repair!

Any chance of it being over revved when you downshifted?
Input or countershaft of trans may be locked up?


Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst



Last edited by STEELCITYFIREBIRD; 09-10-2020 at 01:42 PM.
  #55  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:45 PM
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Pull the heads off now while waiting for help.

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Old 09-10-2020, 10:44 PM
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I’m with Darrell Waltrip on this one, “The Beech blowed up!””

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  #57  
Old 09-10-2020, 10:56 PM
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Update-

Tranny removed. No issue with the tranny. The input shaft spins free. Looking in the bell housing hole, no apparent issues.

With the tranny out, starter out, dizzy out, fuel pump out, pullys loose, and rockers loose, I put a breaker bar on the crank and it is still seized in both directions.

To confirm, all valves ends and springs appear good and held up by the keepers. I didn't do the straight edge deal, but I think that would be a good idea.

I put a borescope in the timing cover, all looks good. Pics attached. It's very difficult to get good pics of the some cylinders where the piston sits high in the hole. Some pistons are clean others are dirty.

The lift plate is on the intake and I can pull the engine tomorrow night and put it on the stand. Saturday, I would pull the heads and pan and reassess. I have Monday off, and if I want to get deep, I can drive the engine to the machinist who is about an hour away.
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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #58  
Old 09-10-2020, 10:58 PM
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Some cylinder bore pics attached. File number indicates cylinder number for most, but I got mixed up.

Edit - No smoking gun, but I'm suspect there'll be something obvious when the heads come off.
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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #59  
Old 09-11-2020, 03:24 AM
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I'm hoping the "smashed" plugs is just some weird anomaly and when you open it up you find something really simply, weird and stupid...like the oil pump shaft broke and wedged itself on one of the crank throws. I know...far fetched, but...

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Old 09-11-2020, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
like the oil pump shaft broke and wedged itself on one of the crank throws. I know...far fetched, but...
I've had that happen, broke the 'hole' in the block where the shaft goes through.

Look down the distributor hole and see what it looks like?



So many things can be the problem, maybe it will be a new one for us?



(but hopefully not an expensive one)


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