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#21
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THIS^^ ... I would also like to see Dyno results of a High Compression 400 using the 2802 Camshaft. I know there are a lot of people using the 2802 in their 400, but you don't really hear as many stories about the results. I've read some say the 400 with a 2802 Camshaft has tire roasting low end, where others say their 400 was soggy on the bottom end with no tire burning power. Maybe the ones that lack the bottom end power weren't tuned properly(Carb and timing), geared properly, not enough converter, or too low compression? I sure hope the 9.8-1 RA III 400 that we are building has good tire burning low end, but ours will have either 3.55 or 3.73 gears and a Hughes GM25 converter. I would like to hear more stories about people's results using the 2802 in their high compression(9.8 and up)400's.
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1978 Trans Am Pump Gas 461 Stroker |
#22
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"... Maybe the ones that lack the bottom end power weren't tuned properly(Carb and timing), geared properly, not enough converter, or too low compression? I sure hope the 9.8-1 RA III 400 that we are building has good tire burning low end..."
There are always Rhoads lifters, to add some low end. But, that makes the Summit cam, less of a bargain price. Since the Rhoads lifter price increase, a decent cam with more bottom end, plus regular lifters, can actually be cheaper than a Summit cam, with Rhoads lifters. https://www.summitracing.com/search/...ily/pontiac-v8 There are options. Last edited by ponyakr; 11-29-2019 at 05:55 PM. |
#23
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I think the 2802 is too big for a 400 that's going on the street. The 2801 would be much better... Im talking street, since this is the street section and not track... Soggy, lumpy, drag racing cams on the street are an exercise in misery when you could be having so much fun with a smooth running, torquey motor with power brakes that work..
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#24
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^^^ agreed - a lesson I learned with a 96 headed 71 400.
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#25
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Quote:
It's only a 224 @ .050 camshaft and the LSA is spread way out at 114 degrees. It's not going to be an outrageously rambunctious idle and should still produce decent vacuum if the compression ratio is decent. I'd put the ICL at least around 108 degrees, and with a proper carb and distributor tune it should work nicely in a 400, and the Hughes converter you chose and the rear gear, should run pretty good. Years back I ran a 2802 in a 428 with stock converter. It idled smooth and performed decently for what it was. |
#26
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I think the 702 does the more low thing like Rhodes on a 2802. I forgot to mention, when engine was 1st assembled, it still had the stock low comp 73 455 heads. It also had a single leg rear. It was actually hard to drive, it made so much bottom. Would spin through 2nd gear shift, well over 200ft. I soon found a posi carrier and installed when I put the 400 heads on.
I can't say enough good bout the voo doo series, I'm going with a 704 this winter.
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1970 amc rebel 4-door, faded blue paint,290 emblems on car, 455 under the hood.Turbo 400,3.15 gear. Best so far 1/8 et,8.90 on street tires, Since that I have added 400 heads. I call it a rat sleeper. |
#27
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I have the 2801 in a low compression 400 and it is very mild.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#28
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Install position is a big player. Many here just stab camshafts in place without checking anything, and no idea where the ICL ended up. Could be anywhere with stacked tolerances playing against you.
That's a great point. Kinda happened to me? When I installed the 2802 I was in a hurry, not paying attention, used the retard key in the 3 key chain set, thought it was straight up. Since this was just a temp fix so I could drive the car until I collected parts for a full build, I didn't degree it. Damn thing rattled and knocked, on 93 with octane boost and timing set at or below stock settings. After head scratching a couple months , thinking the cam was too big, I decided to advance it. I knew u could advance a too large cam to improve bottom so I thought I'd try. To my amazement upon teardown I found my mistake of using the wrong keyway. I set it straight up. After assembly ,what a difference only 2-3 degrees makes. It was now the tire shreader it once was, could run 87 gas, and initial timing back to 14btdc with No more rattle! Since this, I always take the time to throw a degree wheel on when installing a bumpstick!
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1970 amc rebel 4-door, faded blue paint,290 emblems on car, 455 under the hood.Turbo 400,3.15 gear. Best so far 1/8 et,8.90 on street tires, Since that I have added 400 heads. I call it a rat sleeper. |
The Following User Says Thank You to 455rebel For This Useful Post: | ||
#29
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For the few of you who think the 2802 is too big for a 400..... What compression did y'all run in your 400's when you came to this conclusion? Looking at it on paper, and watching videos of it in other people's High Compression 400's(9.5 to 10-1), it seems to me that it isn't radical at all, has a nice lope at idle that is fairly mild(even with standard lifters), sounds about right for a good sounding street 400 to me. I can see where it may act much bigger in a low compression 400 though. Just trying to hear all of the feedback on the 2802 in the 400 as I can. Ours is slowly coming together, still waiting on the machine shop.
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1978 Trans Am Pump Gas 461 Stroker |
#30
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A 9.5 compression 400 and 2802 cam is fine with a 2400 stall converter and 3.08 gears.
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#31
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Ours will be 9.8-1, TH400 and GM25 converter, and either 3.55 or 3.73 gears
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1978 Trans Am Pump Gas 461 Stroker |
#32
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Quote:
I can't believe someone thinks a 224 @ .050" cam on a 114 LSA is a "drag race" cam in a 400" engine. Chevy guys run cams that size in 350s all the time. I wouldn't run it in a 9:1 400 without Rhoads lifters but it works great in higher compression engines. Knew a guy years ago with a '68 'bird. Your basic 400 rebuild with +.030" TRWs and #16 heads. 2802 cam, mild converter, 3.73 gears, 750 Holley, headers. That thing idled fine and would smoke the tires clean off the rims. I'll never forget him grenading the differential doing a burnout at a car club meet.
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---------------------------- '72 Formula 400 Lucerne Blue, Blue Deluxe interior - My first car! '73 Firebird 350/4-speed Black on Black, mix & match. |
#33
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My Bullet cam has similar .050 specs, but less advertised duration and its on a 112 LSA. I run it with 1.65 ratio rockers. It seems like a mild/street cam to me with tons of low end, I run 3.42 gears.. The Bullet cam is very lively at all RPMs, but is basically done by 5500 rpm. I agree the summit cam doesn't seem too big for a 400 with adequate compression. I put both the Bullet and Summit cam in Desktop Dyno and the graphs basically overlay one another with the summit running out just a smidgen longer.
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#34
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Rhoads lifters are misery unless your half way deaf... Then the idle is always depended on oil viscosity. I tried them once on a 462 with a Crower 60919 for about 10,000 miles, never again...
I ended up running locked timing at 36 and that cured the low speed issues. I also found out all you have to do with a single points distributor is remove the springs. That way the points spring retards the timing for the next start. The single points distributor with a CD box of your choice is still one of the best ignitions going.. |
#35
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Quote:
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1978 Trans Am Pump Gas 461 Stroker |
#36
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Quote:
Stan
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Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
#37
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yeah, pretty much. It's basically an updated 744 grind but it certainly doesn't use the newest/most modern lobe designs.
For the price, I think it's a great choice for a healthy street 400. If it's not working well for you (speaking generically here), there's a tuning problem. And tuning includes choosing the right cam for your compression ratio, along with timing, fuel curves and getting the intake centerline right. I'm going to put one in the low compression '73 455 that's currently in my Formula. I think it should work just fine in that and certainly have a LOT more midrange power than the stock cam that's in there now.
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---------------------------- '72 Formula 400 Lucerne Blue, Blue Deluxe interior - My first car! '73 Firebird 350/4-speed Black on Black, mix & match. |
#38
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I'm going to put one in the low compression '73 455 that's currently in my Formula. I think it should work just fine in that and certainly have a LOT more midrange power than the stock cam that's in there now.
Ant trying to be a smart ass but, that's exactly what I did. A stock 73 Bonnie engine with a rings and bearings build. The 702 cost a bit more, but OMG, the difference in it over the 2802. Instant throttle response, slight sound at idle, and all in by 4800rpm. Again, at the track, only bout 2 tenths quicker, but seat of pants meter says Way more than that! The 2802 seems stock, after having the 702 in their. Had sooo many complements from passengers when the 702 was in. 3700lb car with 3:15 gear, stock log exhaust ,and a stock 455. They accused me of lie, said no way is that thing stock .
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1970 amc rebel 4-door, faded blue paint,290 emblems on car, 455 under the hood.Turbo 400,3.15 gear. Best so far 1/8 et,8.90 on street tires, Since that I have added 400 heads. I call it a rat sleeper. |
#39
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#40
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Different cam, so not a true point of comparison, but speaks to the idea that a cam with 224 @ .050 isn't too big for a 400:
I ran comp Magnum 270 (224 @.050,110 lsa, icl ended up at 107) in an approximate 8.6:1 400. Stock log manifolds, m-20, 3.73 gears. It was a little soft below 2000 but really came alive from 2500-5000. It was perfectly drivable at all speeds.
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---------------------------- '72 Formula 400 Lucerne Blue, Blue Deluxe interior - My first car! '73 Firebird 350/4-speed Black on Black, mix & match. |
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