#41  
Old 12-10-2019, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
... If you think a roller chain is stronger take a gander inside a 4 x 4 transfer case and see what type of chain they use in them... type
Or look at the main drive chain of a front-wheel-drive Olds Toronado- huge car, big engine.

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  #42  
Old 12-10-2019, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
... roller chain lighter and probably has less rolling friction...
Morse's tutorial on design principles of their Hy-Vo link chains is very informative. You need to watch it to understand how a chain can exhibit nominally zero internal friction.

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  #43  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:28 AM
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So, does that mean that the only decent cam sprockets have 10 holes, and all those with 3 slots are total junk, subject to premature failure ?

No, all I'm saying is that no matter where I ordered or purchased stock replacement sets in recent years they all showed up with cast iron sprockets with 3 cut-outs and the chains did NOT say MORSE or USA right on the links. All of the ones we placed in service are doing just fine as are the Rollmaster sets we installed that were supplied by several customers that dropped everything off for us to assemble their engines.

I don't think any of these engines get enough miles put on them to kill any currently available timing sets, stock or roller variety. The choice for my own engines are the factory type sets with heat treated gears and wide link belt MORSE chains as I know they will last the life of the engine w/o issue, then I go on to worry about something else.......Cliff

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  #44  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:08 AM
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On the next build I do with a chain I want to find atleast one currently made small lenght tensioner that I can drill holes for on the face of the block to take up even just the slack that a new chain has.

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  #45  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:20 AM
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Well, speaking of Morse. They do make all sorts of chains for all sorts of applications. They have pages for their link and roller chains..

Link chain
https://www.crossmorse.com/en/our-pr...ed-tooth-chain

Roller chain
https://www.crossmorse.com/en/our-pr...-roller-chains

You might notice that the high speed and high load applications require the link chain.

It's a little bit nit-picky because obviously the roller chain setups do the job. Hell, that's what most put on there. But there is a reason the factory engineers went with the link.

I ended up doing WAY too much research on this but basically, with the link design the alternate chain teeth "grab" the wheel teeth during engagement. They also keep a constant radius from tooth to tooth. Good roller chains minimise this effect but all of them have a "rolling on" and "rolling off" motion where the effective diameter of the gear gets larger and smaller slightly. This induces a high speed vibration that saps energy, wears bearings and makes noise (the initial selling point of link chains was their silence). Since this all scales with speed and load the link setup takes more load at higher speed with less energy loss and wear.

It's basically a bit like the difference between a CV joint (link) and a U joint (roller). Both work, but the U joint has uneven rotation inherently which means it needs to be used where the bend is slight or in pairs that cancel (like a driveshaft where the two joints are out of phase and cancel each other).

Now, that's about the basic design. Would a top dollar roller made of top materials outlast a crappy link chain made from soft metal? Maybe. That's why it's frustrating that the only "quality" options are roller.

Is it worth losing sleep over? No. If you have a good roller in your motor keep it. I just hate not being able to choose a superior design because the market has gone elsewhere.

Sam Agnew

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  #46  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:33 AM
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"...heat treated gears and wide link belt MORSE chains..."


So, since you've seen enuff Morse chains to know what they look like, even tho the cam sprocket in the Spotts set is the same 3-slot sprocket that's in most of the other cheap sets, does the chain shown in the Spotts set LOOK like the Morse chains you've seen ?

He specifically says in the ad that the chain in his set is a MORSE chain. The outer links look completely different than the outer links of chains in all the other cheap sets. currently available, including the Melling brand.

Has ANYBODY recently bought a Spotts set, or ANY brand of currently available(not NOS) cheap set that had a MORSE link belt type chain ?

Anybody bought one of those Spotts sets ?

Anybody bought one of the Sealed Power sets, LATELY, that SHOWS to have a cam sprocket with 10 holes, not the slots ? If so, what are the numbers/markings on it ? Most all the ads I see show the same pic. But maybe that's a old pic, and that set no longer uses the 10-hole sprocket ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sealed-Powe...gAAOSwAuZX108s

If MORSE still makes those chains, they should be available somewhere. Anybody have a current part number for one, or a link to one ? Here's some Morse info. But I have no idea how to look up a Pontiac chain.

https://www.regalpts.com/PowerTransm...586E_Sec_F.pdf

https://www.bopengineering.com/high_...ac_mag_3.shtml

Looks like Morse may be owned by Borg Warner, or ?

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/...ctric-vehicles


Last edited by ponyakr; 12-10-2019 at 08:56 AM.
  #47  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:59 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransAm 474 View Post
What about the Cloyes 9-3512X9 Street Billet True Roller set? 82 bucks at Summit, .250" Rollers, Billet cam sprocket, induction hardened Billet Crank sprocket. Any thoughts?
That is a nice timing set at a good price. We used to run that set in Grocery Getter race car @ 900 HP NA and then 1500 HP nitrous oxide injected. We ran the 9-3512X3 which is now discontinued. The only difference is the X9 has 9 keyways vs the 3. They have discontinued most of the 3 keyway sets to reduce part numbers. Next year I am building a mild 461 Cu IN engine for my street car and will use this set. I believe these sets still use the IWIS chains. I will verify at PRI

  #48  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:15 AM
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I thought this chain was interesting. It had "Link Belt USA" stamped on it.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Genuine-B...C350/424941037

Every pic I can find of the Enginetech brand TS350 set shows a 10-hole cam sprocket. Anybody know if this is what you'd get ? Do the 10 holes mean the sprocket is better than the 3-slot sprockets ?

https://www.carid.com/enginetech/tim...3&url=80588803

Morse chain info.

"...Butt-link inverted tooth
Used in most standard applications, this style chain was the forerunner to the Morse HY-VO Link which is a more advanced chain and gear design. The HY-VO Link was originally designed to be used as a drive chain in an early automatic transmission. The butt-link style offers several advantages over the more common roller style. The most important is the chain’s reduced chordal action. This term is used to describe the rise and fall of each chain link as it makes contact on the tooth of the gear. This results in variations in the linear speed of the chain as it travels over the timing gears. A large chordal rise and fall will result in a corresponding large acceleration and decelleration pulsation in the chain, which will produce very jerky cam operation, excessive noise and rapid wear. The butt-link chain drive has proven to have a reduced chordal movement when compared to roller designs. A second advantage of this style is the tooth/link contact action which reduces link impact and can add to longevity over time.

The HY-VO chain was developed by Morse and is relatively new for use in timing drives. It possesses features similar to the butt-link style, especially in the manner it engages the sprockets and its ability to reduce chordal action. In addition, the HY-VO chain has a stronger link design and is able to withstand the higher load of more aggressive camshaft profiles and valve spring pressures. A major stumbling block to widespread use of the HY-VO design was the cost to produce it in relation to a standard silent butt-link. The chain comprises a series of inverted, (inward facing) horseshoe-shaped, steel links hinged together by a pin and rocker joint. The width of the chain is made up from adjacent inverted links stacked with outer guide links on either side. These are held together by a riveted end of the pin which forms the pin and rocker joint. The rivet links have pairs of segmented holes punched through them at either end with the swing joints formed by pairs of identical semi-circular pins passing through the alternately stacked adjacent links..."


Last edited by ponyakr; 12-10-2019 at 10:12 AM.
  #49  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
I thought this chain was interesting. It had "Link Belt USA" stamped on it.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Genuine-B...C350/424941037
Wonder how a swimming pool company handles tech questions?

I was just fixing to post about link chains that come in a square box VS. the long rectangle shaped box. Or chains that fold backwards VS. chains that stand up on their side like a bulldozer track.

Clay

  #50  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:53 AM
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Question from left field: Anybody ever put roller/needle bearings in the Cam Journals (Front only seems excellent) for hi-Rel Street?

  #51  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
That is a nice timing set at a good price. We used to run that set in Grocery Getter race car @ 900 HP NA and then 1500 HP nitrous oxide injected. We ran the 9-3512X3 which is now discontinued. The only difference is the X9 has 9 keyways vs the 3. They have discontinued most of the 3 keyway sets to reduce part numbers. Next year I am building a mild 461 Cu IN engine for my street car and will use this set. I believe these sets still use the IWIS chains. I will verify at PRI
Thank You! We have one we are going to install in a street high compression 400 that we are currently building. My Rollmaster set I run in my personal 461 definitely has the IWIS chain. I'm not at the shop currently to look at the Cloyes 9-3512X9 to verify if it does or not. I appreciate your input.

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  #52  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
On the next build I do with a chain I want to find atleast one currently made small lenght tensioner that I can drill holes for on the face of the block to take up even just the slack that a new chain has.
That's interesting. Back about 16 years ago I was freshening a late model engine and found that the new timing chain had a lot of slack. Since I didn't know who built the engine I had no idea on what chain set to order. So I got a "Cam Correct" deal from a guy in Wisconsin that had a tensioner from a v6 Buick. It cam with a jig to drill holes in the front of the block and the parts to install the tensioner. I used that for the other 2 engines I built for the customer. It worked great. All 3 engines were "bad fast".

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  #53  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:33 AM
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One of the newer Cloyes sets I just put on my engine had zero slack ... so much so I didn't think it was going to on.

I wonder what the factory tolerance was for crank to cam centerline distance.

  #54  
Old 12-10-2019, 12:47 PM
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"They also keep a constant radius from tooth to tooth. Good roller chains minimise this effect but all of them have a "rolling on" and "rolling off" motion where the effective diameter of the gear gets larger and smaller slightly."

Constant tooth contact and much greater contact patch, plus a much stronger design. The MORSE chain pulls down into the sprockets as they are "wedge" shaped making it a very effective way to transfer power from the crank to the cam.

WAY back when I first got into this hobby I found myself hanging around a shop that built engines and ran a few dedicated race cars out of it. The owner cautioned me early on about installing one of those cheap double roller sets (pretty sure they were from Zoom) back then. He actually used a 3/4" wide Morse chain driving a nylon coated top sprocket on his 454 race engine and moved the same timing set from engine to engine when the time came. Never saw him replace it. He claimed it was worth power, ET and MPH at the track. He also cautioned me about installing a high pressure/high volume oil pump on my SBC engine. Said about all that's going to do is work the distributor gear a little harder, could shear the pump drive and might slow you down just a fuzz. I took it back and replaced it with a stock SBC pump and went on to race that little 283 for quite a few years with close to 7000rpm shift points and had zero issues with the bottom side of the engine.

I never had the nerve to run a plastic top gear timing sets even if there was some potential benefit of absorbing harmonics and smoothing things out some as I'd seen way too many of those plastic coated top gears come apart and end up in the oil pan. I did use the wider link belt timing sets on my SBC builds, then years later when I got into Pontiac engines. The SBC's are still available if you order for early 60's 283's and 327's, Pontiac's have always used the 3/4" wide versions. I wouldn't be the first bit afraid of running the three slotted cast iron top sprocket vs the heat treated variety, either one will EASILY last the life of one of these engines if you put a good USA made MORSE chain on it....IMHO

Even with all that said have had ZERO issues with the Rollmaster even though I had the chain stretch way out on my first 455. Can't really blame the Rollmaster timing set, it had a BUTT LOAD of running time on it in terms of street miles and drag strip runs. It just stretched completely out to a point where it needed to be replaced.

As I mentioned earlier, few, and I mean very few of these engines will get enough run time put on them to need much more than one of the lower end double roller set-ups with the cast iron sprockets. I've put a few of those in place (supplied by customers) and all are still out there working just fine far as I know. Most of the other builds I've done got the Rollmaster as I love the 9 keyway adjustable deal for moving the cam around.

For my own engines they get the link belt timing sets and I use the Mopar offset keys to degree the cam. Bad news there is that those are NLA and I've had to buy a few that have shown up on Ebay to stay stocked up on them....at close to $60 a set last time I won an auction for them!........Cliff

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  #55  
Old 12-10-2019, 01:49 PM
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I just ordered a set from the Spotts ebay listing and will tuck it away for the day I actually try and get my car running.

After reading all this and scouring the web, my own conclusions:

1. the low-end cast iron gears are good enough for a stock engine in a car that never runs (mine) or will never accumulate miles

2. the low-end Morse brand link chain offered by Spotts is probably better than others but is hard to find online..may become a dinosaur so better to buy now

3. if I had a real car and a real engine, there are lots of high-end double true-roller sets available.. you get what you pay for

The "best ever" may be a high-end link-belt set with heat-treated gears but they have become collectors' items and not commercially available.

Great education on this thread! Thanks to all. This forum is awesome.

  #56  
Old 12-10-2019, 02:31 PM
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You listened and learned well, and that is WHY this Forum is here and how it is supposed to be used.

Certainly LOTS of varying opinions on many subjects and this is one of them. I also agree that the set Paul is offering would be top of the pile for the link type sets far as what is currently out there and readily available........

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  #57  
Old 12-10-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny View Post
I just ordered a set from the Spotts ebay listing and will tuck it away for the day I actually try and get my car running.
The ebay listing early in the thread is marked sold. New listing now has a $4 price increase. Picture of the chain in the add looks like the better Morse chain that stands up like a bulldozer track when you lay it on its side.

Shiny,
Please post here or let me know by PM if it is the better stiff back chain that doesn't fold backwards so that it fits in a square box.

I've had the better roller chains fail and the floppy back morse chains fail.
Roller chains end up in the oil pan. i've had floppy back morse chains wrap around the crank gear and lots of stuff gets broke...Crank snout broke off, right front corner of block broken...Border line catastrophic.

Should note that these failures happened at higher than normal RPM's for a street driveable car.

Clay

  #58  
Old 12-10-2019, 03:51 PM
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QuickSilver - will do, but if you are breaking them, seems you may need the "good stuff". No way would I expect these inexpensive parts to hold up (wear life) even as well as original let alone tolerate high rpms.

I'd like to know "how" yours broke. High rpm fails imply strength issues (overstress, fatigue) more than wear but the two fail modes are not independent.

I never did reli engineering for timing sets nor anything automotive but I do like understanding what makes things break. The variation across all the suppliers' designs and materials is staggering but when Cloyes talks about their "Z" chain being 30% stronger than most, there's a clue to what matters in high-rpm, high-load (ie valve-train and oil pump) applications.

  #59  
Old 12-10-2019, 04:04 PM
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"... the low-end Morse brand link chain offered by Spotts is probably better than others but is hard to find online..may become a dinosaur so better to buy now..."


I hate to have to keep asking the same questions. But, I don't know anywhwre else to find the answer to some questions I have.

SO, if Paul Spotts can buy a Morse chain, I would assume that other members of the general public can also buy 'em. Don't figure Morse is making the chains just for Paul Spotts.

Therefore, what is the part number for the Morse chain, and where can you buy one ?

Anybody can buy the sprockets, from lots of sources. But, after a LOT of online searching, I have not found a part number & vendor for the Morse chain. There IS a site that lists lots of Morse chain info. But, I saw no way to look up a Pontiac V8 chain.

https://www.regalpts.com/PowerTransm...586E_Sec_F.pdf

There are a lot of real smart guys on this forum. Somebody here has got to be able to come up with this bit of info.

  #60  
Old 12-10-2019, 04:25 PM
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Paul must have some Timing Chain connections as I have a couple of his .005" "short chains" too. Was not aware (until he posted he had them, that they even existed) when I bought them some years ago.

Tom V

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