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#81
12-11-2019, 06:37 PM
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OK. as far as a stretched chain goes, here's how that affects timing:
Remember, stock there is no tensioner to take up the slack. 1. Overall cam timing retards. The chain is now longer overall 2. Cam timing now varies on accelerate vs decelerate. Accel loads the right side of the chain speeding up the valvetrain. Decel loads up the left side "braking" the valvetrain. 3. At idle where engine speed hunts a little (especially with a bigger cam) a stretched chain lets timing bounce, again due to the slack. A tensioner would be good but is a retrofit. Next best thing is probably a beefy thick precise chain that won't stretch easily. Sam
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-- Sam Agnew Where you come from is gone; where you thought you were going to, weren't never there; and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it. Ministry - Jesus Built My Hotrod |
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#82
12-11-2019, 06:52 PM
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On this chain, which I've already linked, are the words "Link Belt USA". So, in this case, is "Link Belt" the brand name of the chain ?
OR, does that just mean it is the link belt STYLE chain, which was made in the USA ? https://www.walmart.com/ip/Genuine-B...C350/424941037 350 seems to be a common number used for Pontiac chains, of many brands. Some are: C350, TC350, TC-350, 222-350. Maybe the Morse chain used 350 in it's part number also ??? Close inspection of this TC350 TRW chain reveals the word MORSE on several links. https://www.ebay.com/i/222894837876?...hoCOMEQAvD_BwE This listing shows lots of crossover numbers used for this type Pontiac chain. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi....c100677.m4598 Here's a Perfect Circle 9-350, which has MORSE stamped on it. https://www.ebay.com/p/174379241?iid=183099625791 Last edited by ponyakr; 12-11-2019 at 07:47 PM. |
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#83
12-11-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
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#84
12-11-2019, 08:00 PM
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Here's more crossover numbers. I didn't come up with anything on some of the numbers. They list Morse Brake as a brand. Don't know about that one. Nothing comes up. Some of the numbers are good.
https://www.yoyopart.com/oem/1254604...gear-c350.html |
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#85
12-11-2019, 09:22 PM
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Nice detective work PONYAKR. I was looking for S.A. Gear in Chicago who made timing sets but most info has disappeared from the internet. Maybe their gone. All I could find was a roller set on Ebay 78112 but on the box label was gears made USA, chain India. My 1977 TRW performance catalog only lists a roller 2112SS set, TC165 replacement chain.
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#86
12-11-2019, 10:37 PM
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"...I was looking for S.A. Gear in Chicago who made timing sets but most info has disappeared from the internet. Maybe their gone..."
I just ASSUME that the "SA" on the 3-slot cam sprockets, which are now used in most of the non-roller sets, are made by S.A. Gear. Looks like the S.A. Gear # for the set is 73007. Cam sprocket is S-305T. Crank sprocket is S-371. Chain # is C-350. https://www.showmetheparts.com/sagear/ Here's the 73007 set, at Auto Zone. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi...wAAOSw1~JZSlAb Here's the S.A. Gear S-305T cam sprocket, from AZ. Same gear sold under many brand names. https://www.ebay.com/i/273600484472?...BoCdeUQAvD_BwE Here's the S.A. Gear S-371 crank sprocket. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi...BYmJGL&vxp=mtr Here's the S.A. Gear C-350 chain, from AZ. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi...4AAOSwyltZSoTh I suppose it's possible that S.A. Gear is currently the only supplier for these 3 component parts. The sprockets in my Cloyes set have exactly the same numbers on 'em. And according to ad pics, most other brands of new sets appear to also have exactly the same components. . Last edited by ponyakr; 12-11-2019 at 10:59 PM. |
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#87
12-11-2019, 10:49 PM
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SA Gear parts seem pervasive, even shown in some of Cloyes sets.
Weird that with this much of the market their web site seems dead. |
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#88
12-11-2019, 11:04 PM
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https://www.showmetheparts.com/sagear/ But, as said, sagearinc.com website does not work. So, they might be going under. Who knows ? http://www.sagearinc.com/ Trivia: Cloyes bought Dynagear. https://gearsolutions.com/news/cloye...nent-business/ Just stumbled across this set. The pic shows a chain with MORSE on some of the links. Don't know if that's what you'd get in the set, or not. This chain does not look like the chain pictured in the Spotts ad. https://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-PRO-....c100005.m1851 The Engine Pro cat shows exactly the same part numbers for the chain & each gear, as the S.A. Gear numbers. C-350, S-305T, & S-371 https://www.enginepro.com/downloads/...et_Catalog.pdf Last edited by ponyakr; 12-12-2019 at 12:00 AM. |
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#89
12-12-2019, 02:45 AM
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Gee... I only intended to post a simple question...
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) |
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#90
12-12-2019, 07:26 AM
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I may have mentioned this before but I'll say it again. In recent years I've noticed that no matter where I purchased the factory replacement timing sets from they showed up looking the same with the iron top sprocket with three cut-outs and the chain did not say "USA" or "MORSE" on it anyplace. The Cloyes always had the top gear with many round holes in it but the last couple I used didn't. I noticed this about 10 years ago so went on Ebay and sourced out some older stock sets with the heated treated metal gears. All but one of them showed up with a MORSE chain, the one that didn't says "JAPAN" on every link.
I'm not afraid of any of the newer variety and most likely they are all from the same source and re-boxed these days. Matters not in the big scheme of things as even the bottom of the barrel el-cheapo double roller variety will last the life of most of these engines the way they are used these days especially if you have moved to a roller camshaft as it takes some more load off the chain. My dad's 1991 Chevy 350 engine made in over 200,000 miles before we had to rebuild it using a 5/8" wide stock timing set and it was a flat cam engine. The chain was pretty loose but no where near failing. How many of these engines will see 20,000 miles in the next 10 years let alone 200,000?........Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#91
12-12-2019, 07:48 AM
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Has anyone ever compared how much play there is in the timing gears between ...let's say the Edelbrock 7895 duel idler gear drive and the Milodon 13900 single idler gear drive.
They both have play, but does the duel idler make for less timing bounce?
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
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#92
12-12-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
I ran the Milodon 13900 (single idler)in a few engines and when I took it apart it looked like it had never been run. Checked the backlash and it showed no wear. Timing was more steady with the gear drive than any timing set I have ever used. I had 2 of these on engines at one time and sold one to a board member here.
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66 GTO Nostalgia Super Stock/Street Legal Car 421 CID, stock block, Wenzler Intake, 2- Carter 750 AFB's, 3.90 Gears, Full Factory Interior, Full Exhaust, Stock Suspension 3750LBS 9.77@136.99 Multiple NSCA/NMCA World Champion 66 GTO 389 3x2, 4 speed, 4.33 gear, Montero Red 33K original Miles 67 GTO 2dr Post, 428, Tri Power, 3.55 Gears 80 Trans Am Black SE Y84 W72 WS6 |
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#93
12-12-2019, 08:32 AM
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I thought so, in that you get what you pay for deal!
The Edelbrock cost 320 and the Milodon like 450.
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
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#94
12-12-2019, 09:17 AM
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I removed a Milodon gear drive set-up from a Super Duty engine we were hired to re-rebuild. It only had a couple hundred miles on it. I didn't look it over too closely but didn't see if it had provisions for degreeing the cam or not?
Nothing at all wrong with a gear drive, but I'd prefer a silent type vs a "noisy" variety.........Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#95
12-12-2019, 09:43 AM
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The Milodon has a setup to alter cam timing up to 8 degrees I think.
glhs#116 I'll have to differ with you on this statement: "2. Cam timing now varies on accelerate vs decelerate. Accel loads the right side of the chain speeding up the valvetrain. Decel loads up the left side "braking" the valvetrain." Nothing is ever decelerating the cam train ... it is turned with more force, or less force. It has far less inertia than the crankshaft/flywheel, it is never, ever in a situation where it is over-running the crankshaft speed. The valve train/dist/oil pump drive are always trying to decelerate the crankshaft ... the crankshaft is the power source, the camshaft is the power sink .... there is never a situation where camshaft/valve train inertia is over running the crankshaft speed and creating slack on the opposite side of the chain. Last edited by dataway; 12-12-2019 at 09:51 AM. |
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#96
12-12-2019, 10:06 AM
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Gear drives can be susceptible to chatter, and/or 'spark chatter'. Many mod the front galley plug so they get more oil, and compensate by using an 80 psi pump. You still get 'slack' with a gear drive, timing still moves almost as much as a good chain setup. There is a minor power loss with a gear drive, and it can induce 'shock' when you accel/left off/accel/let off.
All chains stretch a little, there's always some timing variance. Most have a 'break in' period where they stretch a little in use and heat cycles. 'True Roller' ones might be a 1/2 degree more of initial 'break in' slop over link type, but both hold whatever that amount is for the life of the chain. You know once it starts going beyond that original variance that it's time to change it. I really don't think this subject needs much effort, especially in a street or street/strip application. But I like the subject, and like the info being provided. Manufacturers many times are just that, they manufacture, and they don't have 'media techies' to create or maintain a internet presence. There's no return of investment. That's why most don't have flashy websites. They get the domain name mainly for email communications, and dump a static page out there so it's not 'blank'. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
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#97
12-12-2019, 10:09 AM
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The simplest answer I can give is: Yes. IF the Ebay info is correct, the set Paul Spotts sells thru his Ebay store has a Morse chain. The gears are made by S.A. gear. I suppose you could contact Paul Spotts and ask him, to be sure. Wish somebody would buy a set & let us know exactly what chain you get. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...oAAOSwvAhbW0nU http://www.spottsperformance.com/ Also, there are a few other Ebay sets which SHOW a Morse chain, in the pic used. Can't say that you'd actually GET a Morse chain. https://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-PRO-....c100005.m1851 And, there are a few NOS Ebay chains that show MORSE on 'em, that are sold separately. And, you can buy the cam & crank sprockets separately. https://www.ebay.com/i/222894837876?...hoCOMEQAvD_BwE https://www.ebay.com/p/174379241?iid=183099625791 So, it appears that you can still come up with a set that has a Morse chain. Don't know if Morse ever actually made the sprockets, or not. Don't know who made the cam sprockets Cliff talks about, which has all the holes 'em. I thought this quote from Paul Spotts was interesting. "...SPOTTS PERFORMANCE is now using US MADE precision cast upper timing gears. The cast gears are lighter, stronger and better machined then the billet units. They have better harmonics..." Last edited by ponyakr; 12-12-2019 at 10:51 AM. |
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#98
12-12-2019, 11:12 AM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-Timin...4383.l4275.c10
This auction shows the metal top gear with the round holes. I wonder what will show up?.......
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#99
12-12-2019, 01:53 PM
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"No replacement for displacement!" GTOAA--https://www.gtoaa.org/ |
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#100
12-12-2019, 02:35 PM
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https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...YVUAFgQ4dUDCAs They all use exactly the same pic. Guessing that's an old pic, and that those top sprockets are no longer made. (As always, I could be wrong.) But, I assume that there might be a few sets left on the shelf, somewhere, that has that sprocket. If so, I suppose you could call 'em NOS. Don't know if there is a vendor which has these, where you could have someone actually look in the box & tell you what sprocket their set has. That crank sprocket has the familiar part number of S-371. But, the cam sprocket appears to be showing the engine side, which has no markings of any kind, that I can see. So, just curious as to exactly what markings/numbers are on the old Melling cam sprockets, which had all the holes. Anybody know who made those sprockets ? Here's one, in a Federated box. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Federated-S...4AAOSwO7Nc4H6w Last edited by ponyakr; 12-12-2019 at 03:34 PM. |
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