#121  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:08 PM
Sun Tuned Sun Tuned is offline
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I suppose you could send the gears off to a heat treater.
And what would happen if we had the chain cryo treated? What about cryo on all three??

  #122  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
"...3/4 link chains with MORSE chains made in Mexico ..."

So, are ALL MORSE chains now made in Mexico ?

Can we assume that the made in Mexico chains might be of less quality, & therefore subject to failure/problems, just as there were problems caused by made in Mexico lifters ?

Seeing 2 more chains stamped MORSE, still brings to my mind the chain in the Spotts Ebay listing, where he says it' a MORSE chain. It doesn't look anything like any other chain I've ever seen in a Pontiac timing set.

So, ya'll take another look at that chain. Has anybody here ever seen a chain like this up close ? If so, what markings were on it ?

Just tried to pull up the Spotts ad. It says 2 were sold--none available. So, I suppose his MORSE chain will remain a mystery, at least for the time being. But, you can still see a close-up of that chain & clearly see that the outer links are completely different from the outer links on all other Pontiac chains I've been able to find, online. They're a completely different shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8...p2047675.l2557

The only chain I've seen that looks like that is called HY-VO chain. There is a close up pic at this link.

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/...ctric-vehicles

http://chain-guide.com/applications/...oth-chain.html

Found this Ford Racing set that uses the HY-VO chain.

https://www.amazon.com/Ford-Racing-M.../dp/B003TPKW6U

https://www.ebay.com/i/273374680646?...BoCiPsQAvD_BwE
I have one of those HY-VO chains........no markings on it anywhere.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...25#post6072425


https://www.bopengineering.com/high_...ac_mag_3.shtml
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Last edited by abefromen; 12-13-2019 at 08:43 PM.
  #123  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:43 PM
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"...I have one of those HY-VO chains........no markings on it anywhere..."


Are those small washers on the outside of the connecting links ?

This article shows a good pic of the outer links of the BW HY-VO chain. This chain is used in Toyoto vehicles, & made in Japan.

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/...yota-and-lexus


Last edited by ponyakr; 12-13-2019 at 10:25 PM.
  #124  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 455rebel View Post
Ok,guys, I read this short thread on timing sets. And have too choose one? Almost wish I didn't read it cause now I worry? I would have bought a brand name 3key or more set and forgot about it. So please give me 3 options on a decent set for my 455 winter build?
Budget friendly if possible ? I'll have in the 300lb open spring pressure so it needs to be Tough. I'll drive 2-3K a year. Would like to get 40-50k on the springs and chain?
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Originally Posted by TransAm 474 View Post
What about the Cloyes 9-3512X9 Street Billet True Roller set? 82 bucks at Summit, .250" Rollers, Billet cam sprocket, induction hardened Billet Crank sprocket. Any thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
That is a nice timing set at a good price. We used to run that set in Grocery Getter race car @ 900 HP NA and then 1500 HP nitrous oxide injected. We ran the 9-3512X3 which is now discontinued. The only difference is the X9 has 9 keyways vs the 3. They have discontinued most of the 3 keyway sets to reduce part numbers. Next year I am building a mild 461 Cu IN engine for my street car and will use this set. I believe these sets still use the IWIS chains. I will verify at PRI
That Cloyes set may be the best for you, especially to go the total mileage you mentioned. I believe Mike Garblik is the engine guy on a pro drag team so he knows his stuff. Hope this is of some help.

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  #125  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post


Are those small washers on the outside of the connecting links ?
yes
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  #126  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by abefromen View Post
yes
Below is the chain that was in the Spotts ad. It appears to also have the washers, just like the chain from the Duckworth set has.

So, did this Pontiac chain ever have a part number & source of supply ?

Here's some other Duckworth chains. None look like yours.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...chain&_sacat=0

What is the part number on the Duckworth box your chain came in ?

Do any of you guys have a current catalog/listing of Borg Warner and/or Morse timing chains that might show a Pontiac chain ?

Looks like Duckworth was once known as the Baldwin-Duckworth Chain Corp.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bald...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Last edited by ponyakr; 12-13-2019 at 11:25 PM.
  #127  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:43 PM
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abefromen abefromen is offline
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Came in a green/yellow Duckworth Timing Chain box PN C350.

Bought it online a while back so can't be certain of it's original source or if it's even the correct chain for the box as like you stated, none of the other Duckworth brand chains look anything like it.

It does fit the standard sprockets ok after test fitting to my engine. Not sure if I will use it or a NOS Morse chain I have.

  #128  
Old 12-14-2019, 12:19 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Back from the PRI show and I did talk to my direct contact and engineer at Cloyes Gear. I mentioned there was a very long thread about timing sets for the Pontiac engines. Cloyes has been owned by American Axle for a few years now. They have separated their operation into OE/OE replacement division and Performance division. My contact is involved in the performance product. For the kind of engine builds most on this forum are building, he recommends using the double roller chain and sprocket sets in the performance line. The flat link sets are OE/OE replacements and would be fine for stock rebuilds, stock valve spring pressures and stock type camshaft profiles. For any performance build, they would like to have customers utilize the performance product catalog. Billet or cast sprockets, they are all heat treated. For Pontiac, they all use IWIS true roller timing chains all sourced in Germany. Every single performance set is hand "qualified" on a center to center fixture to make sure it's assembled length is +-.002". Short chains are available for engines that have been line honed many times. Several people have mentioned RollMaster brand sets and that they use IWIS chains as well. That is true, but each manufacturer makes their own sprockets. The IWIS ultimate Z chain, the strongest timing chain available is not available to RollMaster and is proprietary for Cloyes. Cloyes makes all the components in house in Paris AK, a factory they own. (except chains). I will mention that Cloyes supports the Pontiac Hobby by having by far the widest coverage for our engines and is an American company if that matters to anyone anymore. Best of luck with your choices. Much like "who has the best oil", we will never be able to all agree on this one!

  #129  
Old 12-14-2019, 12:52 AM
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Would be nice if you could find out from your contact who makes the C350 chains, which currently come in the Cloyes C3007K Pontiac sets, and where they are made..

The sprockets have SA on 'em. So, as mentioned, I assume those are made by S.A. Gear. Maybe your contact guy could come up with this info ???

I'm not interested in the double roller sets, at all. The big power, roller cam guys can discuss all those.

The stock type sets should be plenty good for most street Pontiac engines, which use common HFT cams & reasonable spring pressure. Probably been many thousands of 400hp+ Pontiac engines do just fine without having a double roller set.

BUT, if the CURRENTLY supplied chains are inferior Chinese junk, then obviously, that could cause a problem. So, does anybody here know of any reliable source of info, to find out exactly who makes the current Pontiac C350 chains, & where they are made ?

  #130  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny View Post
... I interpreted the thread topic as how to get the best possible quality chain in a low-end replacement set (my definition is < $40)...
No, that's not what I asked when I started the thread. I did not say "low end".

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  #131  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:06 AM
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This doesn't sound good. BW needed to unload $800M of asbestos-related obligations somehow tied to Morse TEC. If this is the division that makes chains, how would this affect their business?

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/borgwarner-divests-borgwarner-morse-tec-to-enstar

  #132  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gifford View Post
Is there a Pontiac "Morse" chain set (OEM "silent" style) available that's actually made by Morse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gifford View Post
No, that's not what I asked when I started the thread. I did not say "low end".
I apologize if I misinterpreted or offended.

The term "low end" was mine, not yours. I lumped all original style as "low end" based on cost and the implied performance and durability of "stock" vs "performance".

Could you clarify why you were looking for a Morse-branded inverted-link style set?

Do you think a Morse-branded original style might be as suitable for performance use as the high-cost double roller sets?

  #133  
Old 12-14-2019, 06:20 AM
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I freakin love this place, no where else would a timing chain thread go to six pages

  #134  
Old 12-14-2019, 08:14 AM
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As I eluded to early on, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know how good any of this stuff is simply because these engines aren't getting enough miles put on them to wear out or stretch the lowest end fixed roller/cast sprocket imported double roller set, let alone the highest end true roller/German chain/billet sprocket/9 keyway deal. So it really doesn't matter what you put on one of these engines unless you plan on putting 20,000-30,000 miles on it every year. I personally believe that even the cheapest timing chain set from the catalog will go at least 25,000 miles in one of these engines w/o issue at any power level or spring pressures being used.

In all the years of doing this I have yet to see a timing set completely fail on any of my engines. The only one I had troubles with was the Rollmaster and it did fine for quite a few years before getting so loose it needed to be replaced.

So bottom line I really don't think it's something to worry about and I've outfitted most of the Pontiac engines built here with the Rollmaster simply because they are readily available and make moving the cam around very easy. My own engines get the stock type sets with the hardened metal sprockets and MORSE chains. I know they are super strong and will go tens of thousands of miles w/o issue. I proved that back with my 428 build done around 1989. It was in the Ventura 10 years and at that time I was using the car for daily transportation and racing it just about every weekend. I lived in the South so we had a pretty long racing season. I ended up putting around 70,000 miles on the car in that time period and the engine was removed shortly after I moved to PA and replaced it with a 455. Far as I know it's still out there getting it done as the new owner doesn't put 1000 miles a year on the GTO he installed it in.

I have one additional comment to make about Cloyes. One of the early timing sets I bought came with a chain that said JAPAN on every 5 or 6th link. It was an early set with the dark heat treated metal gears, but obviously they did some outsourcing if/as needed to keep up with production or save money on production costs. I have no idea how good or bad the JAPAN Morse style chain is, but since I have a few of the USA made ones left I'll probably use one of those chains instead........FWIW.......Cliff

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  #135  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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"... a chain that said JAPAN on every 5 or 6th link..."


Back when I was a kid, most of the cheap stuff said "Made in Japan".

But, over time, all that changed. In recent years, the cheap stuff has come from China, Taiwan, & a few other countries.

Think of what a large portion of today's cars & trucks were Japanese brands. And how about motorcycles, 3-wheelers, 4-wheelers, ATV's, etc.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ticle27100187/

https://www.google.com/search?q=when...hrome&ie=UTF-8

https://hiconsumption.com/best-japanese-motorcycles/

https://www.about-china-atvs.com/compare-atvs.html


Last edited by ponyakr; 12-14-2019 at 10:41 AM.
  #136  
Old 12-14-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
Would be nice if you could find out from your contact who makes the C350 chains, which currently come in the Cloyes C3007K Pontiac sets, and where they are made..

The sprockets have SA on 'em. So, as mentioned, I assume those are made by S.A. Gear. Maybe your contact guy could come up with this info ???

I'm not interested in the double roller sets, at all. The big power, roller cam guys can discuss all those.

The stock type sets should be plenty good for most street Pontiac engines, which use common HFT cams & reasonable spring pressure. Probably been many thousands of 400hp+ Pontiac engines do just fine without having a double roller set.

BUT, if the CURRENTLY supplied chains are inferior Chinese junk, then obviously, that could cause a problem. So, does anybody here know of any reliable source of info, to find out exactly who makes the current Pontiac C350 chains, & where they are made ?
When they get back from PRI, I will e-mail your question and hopefully get some answers. My contact, as I mentioned is the chief engineer of the performance side of the business. As crazy as that sounds, he may be completely divorced from the OE/OE replacement side. This is a big business. Cloyes is the original supplier for millions of new OE engines every year. The performance side is small in comparison. This is not from Cloyes, this is from me. IMO, it would be very foolish for an American brand with almost 100 years of a sterling reputation to produce/package and sell junk parts under the Cloyes name. I am confident if you purchase Cloyes parts in a Cloyes box, (not counterfeit), the parts within will give OE service and life, with OE level wear and stretch. This would be Pontiac V-8 engines under 400 HP, operating under 5700 RPM, with a camshaft under .425" net lift, with valve springs in the 130-150 lb. range on the seat. OE replacement means stock engines. If you are building an engine outside these parameters, a performance timing set would be advisable. There will always be the anecdotal story of the guy who ran a Pontiac at 7000 RPM's on stock cast rods, with a solid roller cam and .700" lift, on 250 LB. springs, and the whole thing ran thousands of quarter mile passes and 30,000 street miles with the original stock timing chain and plastic clad cam sprocket. Those stories will always be out there, and they are very likely TRUE!. I am just not that lucky. If I tried it, it wouldn't make it out of the driveway. I run the best parts I can afford. We all have a budget. For around $80.00, you can have a set you won't have to worry about. I will try and find the specific country of manufacturer next week though.

  #137  
Old 12-14-2019, 12:37 PM
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"...with a camshaft under .425" net lift..."

Another term I don't understand.

So, are you referring to lobe lift, or lift at the valve ?

The RAIV engines had over .500 lift at the valve. I assume they came with the same timing sets that other 400's came with, didn't they ?

Main failures I remember reading about were the cast rods.

As for timing sets, the only problems I remember reading about were the plastic teeth on the cam sprockets. Mine failed at less than 50k miles, in my '69 RA3.

  #138  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:23 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
"...with a camshaft under .425" net lift..."

Another term I don't understand.

So, are you referring to lobe lift, or lift at the valve ?

The RAIV engines had over .500 lift at the valve. I assume they came with the same timing sets that other 400's came with, didn't they ?

Main failures I remember reading about were the cast rods.

As for timing sets, the only problems I remember reading about were the plastic teeth on the cam sprockets. Mine failed at less than 50k miles, in my '69 RA3.
Yes, you are correct, Ram Air IV had .516" net lift, (at the valve) Typical performance Pontiac engines had .407" net and .447" net (at the valve if someone put 1.65:1 rockers on it)) I guess my point was, trying to be delicate here, stock replacement parts are best used on stock engines. Engine failures are exponentially higher when high lift, long duration cams with strong valve springs are run at high RPM,s with camshaft drive systems designed for low lift cams with weak springs and 5700 RPM's as the top limit. I just don't want to see Pontiac enthusiasts have their modified engines come apart and fail over a $40.00 difference between a timing set designed for a stock engine and a set proven reliable to over 1500 HP. To answer your question directly, the factory sets with plastic clad teeth on an aluminum hub and a steel crank sprocket with a flat link chain was adequate for all Stock Pontiac V-8's with .407 lift or lower, possibly up to .516" lift in the Ram Air IV. I have never owned a Ram Air IV and have never taken one apart with the OE timing set on the engine. So I don't know for sure what they came with. I am sure many on the forum have and can chime in.

  #139  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:54 PM
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Yeah, I suppose it's always pretty much the same. Guys with the extra dollars to spend, will buy & recommend parts they hopefully can't break, regardless of their price.

When it comes to pistons, many won't consider anything less that $800 Ross customs. Some may go with other brands that are even higher.

For cams, many insist on high dollar rollers with the highest priced lifters & rockers available.

For rods & cranks, many insist on the best USA made products. Absolutely won't consider anything made in China, for their engine.

Many will consider only one brand alum head, which must be ported by one particular person.

Many must have an aftermarket block, even if a factory block would be plenty strong for their power level.

And, I could go on & on. Anyhow, that's why lots of guys spend $15k-$20k for a Pontiac street engine, and some even more.

Then there are us low budget guys. We can't even spend $10k for an engine. But, we'd still like to have a Pontiac powered car, with decent below 5000 rpm power. It doesn't have to be indestructible. But, we'd like for it to stay together for a reasonable amount of time. And, we don't wanna pay twice the price for a part, when a part that cost half as much will work just as well, IN OUR ENGINE.

Just because a part won't last in a 6000+ rpm race engine, don't mean it won't last for the life of a street engine, that seldom, if ever, goes past 5000 rpm.

Cast rods are a good example of this. I raced several cast rod 455 bracket engines. They never went past 5500, cause that's where the rev limiter was set. If I'd let 'em go to 6000 rpm, it's very likely that some of the rods would have failed.

So, for long stroke engines that will go past 6000 rpm, on a regular basis, good forged rods are a MUST, not just insurance.

For a max 6000 rpm street 400, $800 Ross pistons would work just fine. But, cheaper Speed Pro forged pistons, should be plenty strong. I assume there have been thousands of street & strip Pontiac engines built using TRW/Speed Pro forged pistons. Yes, the high dollar pistons are lighter & maybe even stronger, & have floating pins. But, for the low budget guys, that extra $400 can be used for forged rods, or cam, lifters, springs, or carb, or headers, or etc, etc.

So, IMO, if a $30 timing set will last for the life of my engine, even if I had to replace the chain a time or 2, why should I pay $100 or more for a timing set, I don't really need. Most of those chains will stretch, too. Now, if I had unlimited funds, sure, buy parts better than I should ever need. Lots of guys here just don't seem to understand that many street guys are also low budget guys, who can't afford the high end parts, just to have a little insurance. Now, if a guy wanted a rod recommendation for his 455 engine. which he was gonna wind to 6000 rpm, on a regular basis, it wouldn't be a good idea to recommend cast rods.

Maybe, it might be a good idea to recommend suitable parts on different price levels, beginning with the lowest priced item that would work good for the build, then mention possible upgrades, if budget allows.

But lots of guys just blast any lower priced part, saying it's foolish to buy anything less than the high dollar part, even if the lower priced part has proven to be OK, over many years..

As with most every Pontiac subject, opinions differ.


Last edited by ponyakr; 12-14-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #140  
Old 12-14-2019, 08:28 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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I agree with everything you put in that post ponyakr, we all have a budget. We all have decide where we can save some money, what the true end use will be, what the car's worth, how much it will be driven or raced. Many, many factors. The 62 Catalina I have right now is a perfect example of the choices people make for THEIR needs. My Catalina is truly beautiful, near perfect chrome and trim, fantastic show quality paint, a super nice interior. But that is where the previous owners priorities were. When I bought it, it looked great under the hood, nice paint, tri-power standing tall. But the "freshly rebuilt, non-numbers matching 455" was complete junk. It burned a quart of oil every 200 miles, felt like it had about 200 HP, and was generally miserable. Idled great, cruises fine, very little smoke unless under heavy throttle. Good enough for the cruise-ins and car shows. 4-speed was in the same condition, noisy as hell, but worked. Looked great from the outside. Rear end, same deal, completely worn out. I just can't own a car like that, many can. As far as spending unnecessary $ on engine parts, I tend to like to do things once and then not have to worry about them ever again in a street car. If I don't have the money for the parts I want, I just save up and wait til I do. I have been gathering parts to rebuild the above engine for 2 years. I will use the best parts I can afford. In general, you get what you pay for. As long as the owner doesn't expect $800.00 forged piston performance from an $8.00 Badger cast piston, there is no problem. On topic with timing chains, it is unreasonable to expect a generic E-bay Pontiac timing set for $19.00 to perform like an $80.00 Cloyes True roller set.

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