Best pic I've seen of the new GTO so far.

[David Jones]

both sides!!!!


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[ChiefIronHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just like the last "Pontiac LeMans" right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. I wasn't even born then so you tell me?

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>they produced a GTO out of a Monaro.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean kinda like they used to produce the GTO out of a Lemans.
The GTO was never a stand alone platform or model so why all the whining?

[455HOGT37]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Iron Horse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just like the last "Pontiac LeMans" right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. I wasn't even born then so you tell me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be a yougster... You could still get a new one in the early 90's. It was a little POS from Korea, I think. This was another one of Pontiac's efforts to buy their way into a market with a nose job and nameplates.

My point is, if you accept that GM can snap it's fingers and create a Pontiac out of a Holden, then why not this little Asian thing from a decade ago? NOBODY buys the asian lemans as a Pontiac, so why the double standard?

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
[You must be a yougster... You could still get a new one in the early 90's. It was a little POS from Korea, I think. This was another one of Pontiac's efforts to buy their way into a market with a nose job and nameplates.

My point is, if you accept that GM can snap it's fingers and create a Pontiac out of a Holden, then why not this little Asian thing from a decade ago? NOBODY buys the asian lemans as a Pontiac, so why the double standard?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're gonna compare a early 90's Korean car to a 2003 Australian built, GM owned car that has a 4 year track record already? Give me a freaking break. You think GM can just build a brand new car from scratch over night? What the F do you think they are doing now? It takes an avg of 3 years to do it. That would mean no RWD V8 Pontiac until at least 2007 or so. Bob Lutz is a car guy who saw a great car and used it for the intrem and will use what they learned from the Monaro experiment to improve the US built GTO. I just hope it is as good as the Aussie built car.

[David Jones]

mr_gto. You DO make this forum entertaining. Thank you.

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[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
mr_gto. You DO make this forum entertaining. Thank you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Knowledge is power. Those that have it are at a clear advantage.

[David Jones]

I'm glad even you recognize that. Your position in this world must be secure.

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[455HOGT37]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:

You're gonna compare a early 90's Korean car to a 2003 Australian built, GM owned car that has a 4 year track record already? Give me a freaking break.

Obviously the vehicles do not compare, but the marketing is exactly the same... An outsourced product rebadged for a hole in this market.

You think GM can just build a brand new car from scratch over night?

I think GM created this "overnight" crisis over many years with lack of vision. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them nor do I think it took any particular brilliance to see that they need to get back into the RWD game.



What the F do you think they are doing now?

I think they are playing catch-up after many years of doing nothing but sitting around licking their nuts.


It takes an avg of 3 years to do it. That would mean no RWD V8 Pontiac until at least 2007 or so.

That sounds like poor management to me... Good thing Ford is still in the RWD game.

Bob Lutz is a car guy who saw a great car and used it for the intrem and will use what they learned from the Monaro experiment to improve the US built GTO.

...And he wouldn't be above making a buck or two by fooling a few people into believing the Pontiac GTO is back either.

I just hope it is as good as the Aussie built car.

Hope isn't going to do it for me anymore... GM is going to have to prove it from now on.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



It took a while, but I have figured out why many of you accept this car as a Pontiac... Because GM says so! Many of you have turned brand loyalty into a religious faith.

I have my answers. Thanks for the time.

[Mr_GTO]

David, only bright people can figure it out. You haven't.

So they don't compare uh? Well why mention it then? And you are right, it does fill a hole. It filled a huge hole. But I guess you were happy with no RWD V8 Pontiac for more than 6 years. Glad to know that.
I agree that there was a lack of understanding about what customers want. Lutz isn't one of them. He wouldn't be where he is today if he didn't.

Yes, they are playing catch up. At least they are playing instead of sitting on the sidelines.

Good thing Ford is? Uh, well if you think a car based off a '78 Fairmont is good then ok.

You and I don't know what it costs to make the Monaro available to the North American market. It might have cost an arm and a leg to get it certified. It might not have. We don't know what GM makes on the GTO. So it is all speculation.

The Aussie car already has a better than avg track record for quality.


So, in your opinion, what makes a MODERN DAY GTO?

[HUMBLER]

Religious faith, now you're getting it!

Bless us Pontiac Fans, everywhere!

"the Humbler...the Humbler...G...T...O!"

[Goathead]

Merry Christmas to all you hard heads.....



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[David Jones]

Thankfully I haven't been illuminated by your type of brightness, mr_gto. Merry Christmas all!!!!

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[455HOGT37]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:

So they don't compare uh? Well why mention it then?

Just pointing out the double standard. The LeMans is NOT a Pontiac because it is an outsourced, rebadged, foreign car designed for a market half the world away, yet the Monaro shares all of the above, and it is considered by some of you to be a Pontiac? Can you explain that without using the global corporate arguement... I have heard that one and it doesn't wash in this case. It's a weak excuse at best.


And you are right, it does fill a hole. It filled a huge hole. But I guess you were happy with no RWD V8 Pontiac for more than 6 years. Glad to know that.

I am into old Pontiacs as a hobby, not a lifestyle or religion. That choice only SLIGHTLY influences my new car shopping. I am first and foremost a consumer of the corporate Pontiac product. If Pontiac wants my money, then they need to produce a car that I want to buy. It has been a long time since that has happened, so I can wait a little longer. Truth be told, I see no connection with my hobby and the current Pontiac division... It can go away like Olds for all I care.


I agree that there was a lack of understanding about what customers want. Lutz isn't one of them. He wouldn't be where he is today if he didn't.

Time will tell, but I am not about to celebrate the rebirth of Pontiac just yet.

Yes, they are playing catch up. At least they are playing instead of sitting on the sidelines.

Completely agree!

Good thing Ford is? Uh, well if you think a car based off a '78 Fairmont is good then ok.


Cheap, fast, vast aftermarket and factory support... I think they pretty much proved that works. One other major thing going for it is the vast supply of lower tier cars as parts sources.

BTW: F body who?

You and I don't know what it costs to make the Monaro available to the North American market. It might have cost an arm and a leg to get it certified. It might not have. We don't know what GM makes on the GTO. So it is all speculation.

Well, no matter what it costs, I think we can both agree that with such low production unit totals, it is not going to significantly affect the bottom line one way or the other.
The Aussie car already has a better than avg track record for quality.


So, in your opinion, what makes a MODERN DAY GTO?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[B]Too bad GM didn't ask me that question!

We will pretend for a moment that the GTO name HAS to be used for some reason (I don't think it does, BTW).
First off, the current hardware seems to be acceptable, but it needs to be built by Americans.
Second, since it will never see enough volume to justify a reasonable, stand alone product, it should be based off a lower tier model, like a six banger Tempest or LeMans. This should ensure market share for the platform and provide a huge supply of parts in junkyards for years to come. I would like to see the platform on every corner in town, like the Mustang.
Third, it needs to be available as a stripped model that younger kids can afford (A history lesson about the success of the 5.0 Mustang or Plymouth Roadrunner is in order here). An exclusive, high cost GTO will fail. We need something with roll-up windows and cloth seats to beat on, not a BMW clone.
Lastly: If this Monaro was imported as a Pontiac Lemans for 04, followed in a few years by the American built "GTO", most of the "new GTO haters" would love the Monaro import, and it would enjoy far greater acceptance.

[Mr_GTO]

Should I point out that GM has been outsourcing vehicles for years? It isn't a new concept. God.
The GTO and Global sharing is a weak excuse? So lets wait 6 years without a RWD car when the BEST readily available 2dr RWD coup is being built BY GM on a different continent is a WEAK EXCUSE? You are definatly not a business person and if you are, well, I feel for you. What Lutz did was not rocket science. It was called KISS. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. It was an easy call, outside the US Federal Safety standards.

LOL, Pontiac hasn't been "Pontiac" since 1979. GET OVER IT! This is the way it is. Try test driving a GTO. It might change your mind that the car is actually a good car.

I have owned 3 later model F-bodies. There are plenty of aftermarket parts for them. As much or more in some instances as the Mustang.

Funny, the original was a medium car with full size power. The new one is mid size car with Sports car motor. Pretty damn close.

Just a tad of info/education for you. GM is ONLY allowed by the wonderful UAW to sell 18K units. The unions won't allow them anymore. GM could bring over the whole holden line but the Union won't let them. Lutz is working on that though. You will see those cars here in a year or two. All of them.

And another bit of info, the Monaro has a SC'd 3.8L Buick motor as standard. The LS1 V8 is OPTIONAL. Wow, sounds like your Tempest/GTO argument. Lutz didn't want to just have the V6 brought over. Kind of defeats the purpose.


Well, based on your business savy, saying it's going to fail is pretty far from the facts in my opinion. And the days of decent V8 cars that cost $15K new are done. GT mustangs cost $25K. That is the cheapest you are gonna get. The '05 won't cost less either. Lutz saw the Formula take up that role and it did ok, but he wants Pontiac to compete with BMW. And why shouldn't. I heard for years here that the last F-body interior was lousy, bla bla bla. Now you have a nice interior, best ever by GM, and people still complain about the exterior looks. Well, can't please everyone. I bet the 18K lucky owners will love the car.

[455HOGT37]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:

...Pontiac hasn't been "Pontiac" since 1979.

AT LAST, WE AGREE!

GET OVER IT!

I've been "over it" for as long as I can remember.

Try test driving a GTO. It might change your mind that the car is actually a good car.

You have never seen me say that the car is anything but good. It's the marketing that sucks

I have owned 3 later model F-bodies. There are plenty of aftermarket parts for them. As much or more in some instances as the Mustang.

Yet the F body is dead while the Mustang lives on... One is a success, and one is a failure. From a buisness perspective, explain to me how GM won that one?

Well, based on your business savy, saying it's going to fail is pretty far from the facts in my opinion.

Well, that sentence makes almost no sense, but I know there is an unwarranted insult in there somewhere. You don't have nearly enough information about me nor the mental capacity to draw that conclusion. Stick to what you know, boy.

...but he wants Pontiac to compete with BMW.

Just what the world needs, another BMW clone.
If the GTO is going to try play the part of a high profile status car, the future of the Mustang looks secure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info, you have only bolstered my position.

[This message was edited by 455HOGT37 on December 24, 2003 at 05:19 PM.]

[Mr_GTO]

You're not over it because you continue to bitch that Pontiac isn't building the car you want.

The marketing is fine. The GTO and Monaro are the premier sports coup's in Australia and North America for each respective division. I could see the car here and it not called GTO and it does everything great and then people bitch it isn't called GTO.

Why did the F-body fail? In 1996-97 when GM killed off the B-Body and Corvette almost didn't make it, people in charge were not doing their job. Advertising was cut. And reasoning for not complying with the 2003 Fed Safety Standards(which the 4th Gen didn't pass/99 Mustang[the redesign] did) were introduced and GM knew the contract with the Candian plant were it was being produced until 2004-2005(that is when the contract ended) didn't justify the retooling of the car and renewing a contract with a foreign plant. And Bob Lutz wasn't in charge.

Funny, you fail to refute any of my arguments. Last time I checked you weren't head of Product Development for GM like Bob Lutz is. Hmmmmmm


LOL, last time I checked, GTO wasn't competing with the Mustang. And the Mustang Cobra was a $33K car with IRS and a blower that wants to compete with foreign coups.


Thank you for skipping/admitting you were wrong on several of my points. It just bolstered my argument even more.

[455HOGT37]

MR GTO,

You seem to have a huge emotional stake in the GM product line. Your devotion seems almost fanatical. This handicaps you by not being able to engage in a rational discussion if at all critical of Lutz, Holden imports, F bodies or LS-1 engines. I can't ever hope to engage in any meaningfull daialog with you so long as you are a mental slave to the GM corporation. That you have equated my non-response to some of your canned rhetoric as a victory for your cause showed me all I need to know about your state of mind. Your obsession is complete. Seek proffessional help.

[Goathead]

That is a GTO? don't think so...



http://www.dannys65gto.com

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[David Jones]

Come on guys! Even mr_gto realizes nobody is "bright" enough to discuss things automotive on his level.

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